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John, when I say God is glorified even in eternal Hell, it is on the surface an offensive comment. But Hell brings Him Glory because it serves to magnify the value of the cross that much more! People spending eternity in Hell is difficult to think about, but to think of Christ and what He's done to rescue underserving sinners from this? How much more glorified can you get than that?
For the record, I feel compassion for those being led astray, and I do pray grace and mercy for them.
When people say, "So and so is a false teacher, they are a wolf, they are a false prophet," it feels very presumptuous.
There are many solid, amazing Bereans who feel Todd's teachings never violated the absolutes of scripture. It felt like you have made a final determination on Todd's theology, his position with God and eternal destiny.
Yes, we must boldly preach truth, preach holiness, preach hell. Absolutely. But, with fear and trembling, humility and grace. We can't point the finger and just call people out whom we don't theologically agree with.
If they don't violate the absolutes, then we have to tread carefully.
There is a great rift growing in the Church regarding spiritual gifts and the POWER of the Holy Spirit. There is also a great divide growing regarding our presidential race.
WAKE UP OH SLEEPER- Nation against Nation meant inner conflict. There is a day coming and it is coming faster than expected.
We need to be ready.
Praying and Fasting for our Leaders, Pastors, Evangelists and Teachers.
Praying and Fasting for our City's and our Nation
Turn and Repent-Love and Encourage
Weep and Cry out.
WAKE UP OH SLEEPER
Sound an alarm.
There is now as there was then with this person, Stacy Campbell a "lack" of discernment!
It does not reflect what the Holy Ghost teaches in Scripture.
Stacy, I am sorry for you. I encourage you to repent, come to clear and simple repentance. Christ by Himself, God Our Heavenly Father or the Holy Ghost operate as Sovereigns. I cite two places in Scripture for you to "ponder" and for all who desire earnestly for Spiritual Gifts, which by the way is "taught" by the Apostle in Scripture, cf., 1 Cor. 14:1.
Here is an Apostolic "alignment" according to Scripture:
Act 14:3 So they remained for a long time, speaking boldly for the Lord, who bore witness to the word of his grace, granting signs and wonders to be done by their hands.
Act 14:4 But the people of the city were divided; some sided with the Jews and some with the apostles.
Here is another one, this time it is Our Friend, the Holy Ghost acting Sovereignly with God Our Heavenly Father and with Christ, the only one commissioned to "build His Church" for Them:
Act 13:2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."
Act 13:3 Then after fasting and praying they laid their hands on them and sent them off.
Act 13:4 So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleucia, and from there they sailed to Cyprus.
I would to God that all these public figures with a following would stop justifying what they did that night and repent and show forth True Apostolic humility!
Clear Godly Leadership does that. Godly Leadership walk in humility one with another and as an example for the flocks of God!
Here, here is a "Thus says the Lord" regarding this whole affair; the Bentleys and those who participated in that ceremony laying hands on them!
Mic 6:6 "With what shall I come before the LORD, and bow myself before God on high? Shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves a year old?
Mic 6:7 Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, with ten thousands of rivers of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?"
Mic 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
Mic 6:9 The voice of the LORD cries to the city-- and it is sound wisdom to fear your name: "Hear of the rod and of him who appointed it!
Mic 6:10 Can I forget any longer the treasures of wickedness in the house of the wicked, and the scant measure that is accursed?
Mic 6:11 Shall I acquit the man with wicked scales and with a bag of deceitful weights?
Mic 6:12 Your rich men are full of violence; your inhabitants speak lies, and their tongue is deceitful in their mouth.
Mic 6:13 Therefore I strike you with a grievous blow, making you desolate because of your sins.
Mic 6:14 You shall eat, but not be satisfied, and there shall be hunger within you; you shall put away, but not preserve, and what you preserve I will give to the sword.
Mic 6:15 You shall sow, but not reap; you shall tread olives, but not anoint yourselves with oil; you shall tread grapes, but not drink wine.
Mic 6:16 For you have kept the statutes of Omri, and all the works of the house of Ahab; and you have walked in their counsels, that I may make you a desolation, and your inhabitants a hissing; so you shall bear the scorn of my people."
Prophecy is also conditional. Someone may have a prophecy given that they are going to bring revival to a specific nation... and that word may be confirmed many times... but, if that person exercises his free will to fall into sin, that prophecy won't come to pass.
The 'apostolic alignment' issue is too difficult to criticize too. The way it was done in no way violated any of the absolutes of scripture that I can see. That method wasn't forbidden in scripture either.
There are a lot of people out there who shout "false prophet" from the rooftops at the slightest controversial remark. They are immature in their understanding of the prophetic, and that immaturity is doing a lot of damage in the church.
There is a very critical, suspicious, "I'm right, you're wrong" attitude in the church these days. People are drawing conclusions based on their own interpretation of scripture (often a flawed interpretation) and a arrogantly making the final judgment on someone else. Usually they aren't even in close relationship with that person. I believe God is going to swiftly judge those who are quick to point the finger at others. Others who are fallible but who are also called of God and loved by God.
There needs to be some humility. It's possible that the so called "Bereans" are just looking for a fight to pick in the guise of 'alerting the body' of a so-called wolf in the camp.
Such an approach brings shame to the church.
Could it ...?
Matthew 15:1-9 (ESV)1 Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, 2 “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat.” 3 He answered them, “And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’ 5 But you say, ‘If anyone tells his father or his mother, What you would have gained from me is given to God, 6 he need not honor his father.’ So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God. 7 You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said: 8 “ ‘ This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; 9 in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”
Notice clearly that the problem was not their adherence to the Bible but rather their adherence to their own doctrines devised by men.
Another example:
John 5:45-47 (ESV)45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Moses, on whom you have set your hope. 46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?”
Once again, notice that the problem is not their adherence to the scriptures.
Multiple other examples could be cited. Now here is the point. Among the many errors of the pharisees, was their tendency to place their own doctrines, invented by men, above the scriptures. What the bible had to say could be cancelled out in favor of what they said.
I would submit that we see much the same thing happening in the prophetic movement. We see a host of teachers inventing new doctrines that are completely unsubstantiated by scripture and then presenting them as fact EVEN IF THEY CONTRADICT THE DIRECT TEACHING OF THE WORD OF GOD.
You can read the rest here:
http://signofjonah.wordpress.com/2007/08/29/rep...
with all do respect to your comments above, I was being very "gracious".
Pro 6:23 For the commandment is a lamp and the teaching a light, and the reproofs of discipline are the way of life,
Pro 6:24 to preserve you from the evil woman, from the smooth tongue of the adulteress.
Let me remind your readers of some things:
First, after much prayer for you and this whole mess, Stacy, Peter, Bill, Che, Rick and the rest, who I assert again are looking out for themselves by their very words, ....the "Lord" gave me the "quickened" Word, I tell you the Voice of the Lord is being "heard":::>
Mic 6:9 The voice of the LORD cries to the city-- and it is sound wisdom to fear your name: "Hear of the rod and of him who appointed it!
Mic 6:16 ".... so you shall bear the scorn of my people."
We in these days are experiencing both His "rod" and "the scorn of His people".
Now, this morning I will add to it , my comments above, mindful of these words from Micah to underscore the sincerity and earnest I place in this mix::::>
Pro 30:4 Who has ascended to heaven and come down? Who has gathered the wind in his fists? Who has wrapped up the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son's name? Surely you know!
Pro 30:5 Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.
Pro 30:6 Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar.
Jesus prophesized this:
Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'
Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'
Now I turn back to Micah and his "burning" Words in our depth of being, our bellies. God's "rod" and His people's "scorn" which mind you if you read Wagner's response was very "scorn" full saying Todd was a liar! How can such a one as this apostle, C Peter Wagner, say that in light of the verses I will open up coming now:::>
Micah 6:9 ...."Hear of the rod and of him who appointed it!"
Here is the "Apostle" "Prophet" Jesus speaking about this "rod" and "Who" appointed it!"
I will post all the verses for a full context of what is being "done" in these days by Risen Christ Jesus right now because of this whole affair:::>
Mat 10:17 Beware of men, for they will deliver you over to courts and flog you in their synagogues,
AAAH, Todd has filed in court for divorce! He is dragging his wife there apparently? We shall see over time as this plays out! I do not minimize her role in this.
Mat 10:18 and you will be dragged before governors and kings for my sake, to bear witness before them and the Gentiles.
Mat 10:19 When they deliver you over, do not be anxious how you are to speak or what you are to say, for what you are to say will be given to you in that hour.
Mat 10:20 For it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.
Now consider verse 20 and the equivalence, our hope as True Believers when we speak in His Name in this world full of demons filling the air with truly hurtful hatred for God and mankind. As His Children, the sons and daughters of God, should not it be the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob's Spirit speaking through His, His Son Jesus' Body? You are not saying the Spirit of Our Heavenly Father when speaking through those who spoke, Stacey included, that night, spoke "half truths"? How did God get it all wrong about Todd seeing these folks all came to the podium speaking God's Word to Todd about his future and theirs with him, hmmmmm?
No, I believe now as I did then, that these folks got caught up in some "whirlwind" of emotions and they now regret it and because were not "hearing" clearly the "Voice of Our Heavenly Father" Who is the "First and the Last" as Scripture teaches, we sadly have these tragic events unfolding.
Mat 10:21 Brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death,
Mat 10:22 and you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
As I posted in another dialogue with you John, I still remain faithful to that Word you agreed to yourself in reply to my comments:::>Galatians 6:1-5! Let 'spiritual men' now come along side and restore this whole affair.
Mat 10:23 When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
Mat 10:24 "A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master.
Now, reconcile this verse here with what you know about that Alignment ceremony that was overseen by C. Peter Wagner, please? How is it that none of these folks got it right, Peter included? They have all come out publicly, soliciting for monies for various "God projects" as "Disciples who have attained to that place of Our Master", have they not? You yourself even solicit funds, John! hmmmmm, I digress.
Mat 10:25 It is enough for the disciple to be like his teacher, and the servant like his master. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebul, how much more will they malign those of his household.
I have not called Todd or any of these I am applying reproofs too as of the house of Beelzebul. If I have, quote it and I will retract it. I have said and firmly believe all along that they have simply missed the "Word of the Lord" and the Lord has applied His own discernment and discipline to it. If you are not a Son of God or His Daughter, don't worry about discipline, you won't get any from God, only "wrath", for you would be an illegitimate being in God's eyes anyway! All God's children are chastised and disciplined so that we can share in His Holiness, and it happens from time to time to bring reconciliation and healing to the crippled part of the Body!
Heb 12:15 See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no "root of bitterness" springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled;
Heb 12:16 that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal.
I continue now with Matthew,
Mat 10:26 "So have no fear of them, for nothing is covered that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known.
Mat 10:27 What I tell you in the dark, say in the light, and what you hear whispered, proclaim on the housetops.
I speak because of what I hear in the dark. I am proclaiming it opening hereon and letting your readers be the judge of what I say! I will be the first to say, if anything I write hereon has no "fire" in it, as in, after reading what I say, you do not burn inside your being, then it is not of God! That is why I say "judge it"! If these words I am publishing hereon are not of God, they will not burn within you. But, If the Holy Ghost comes behind them, and He will, you will know if I speak of God or not and what I hear Him speak to me to write hereon! I am certain of that, John!
Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Here is the "rod" and the One who appoints it confirming Micah's written Word I apply to this whole affair and apply it in the Name of the Lord!
The rod has come forth and we all should be ashamed! The scorn of many people have been unleashed into the world and the world is sitting back have fun and discrediting the Glory of God because of it and because of the foolishness of His people when foolishness displays itself like this alignment ceremony broadcast over GodTV!
Now hear this, this is our only Hope from Our God:::>
Mat 10:29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father.
Mat 10:30 But even the hairs of your head are all numbered.
Mat 10:31 Fear not, therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.
Our only consolation is this, if there is error, we can appeal to the Gospel of the Kingdom and to Our Heavenly Father Who did send Jesus Christ to redeem us and ransom us, freeing us by His Blood from our own sins too.
Rev 1:5 and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood
Rev 1:6 and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
Sadly the world, who may be having fun right now because of all of this, have no Gospel to turn too to be covered and restored and healed. They as Satan himself have turned away from God and want to have nothing to do with Grace or Our Lord of Grace, Mercy and Peace!
I leave off with this warning to True Believers reading these words and then another quote of Scripture to underscore the warning:::>
2Ti 3:1 But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty.
2Ti 3:2 For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3 heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good,
2Ti 3:4 treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
2Ti 3:5 having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people.
2Ti 3:6 For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions,
2Ti 3:7 always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth.
Here is the Truth that sets a man free from this world system and from the god of this world who is even now continually leading souls away from God to those things AT THE END TIME Paul makes a "prophetic" warning about and I as well hereon now:::>
Joh 12:28 Father, glorify your name." Then a voice came from heaven: "I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again."
Joh 12:29 The crowd that stood there and heard it said that it had thundered. Others said, "An angel has spoken to him."
Joh 12:30 Jesus answered, "This voice has come for your sake, not mine.
Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out.
Make no mistake, the ruler of this world will be cast out of his high places and his head will be crushed as the Apostle prophesied. And let it known by you John that I declare the "Grace of God in Truth":::>
Rom 16:20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.
If one Christian believes that angels are active today while another doesn't, that's ok. We can still get along. We can pray and serve side-by-side.
The absolutes of scripture have not been violated.
I do believe the Lakeland Outpouring is exposing the Pharisees... those who shout Bible verses like a scholar, but who attack people God loves. They arrogantly presume their biblical insight is superior to anothers.
Now, if it's an absolute of scripture that's being violated, we must stand firm.
Yes but there's more to it than that. Many are deflecting appropriate enquiry into whether Stacey and others represent God or not. I believe there is a strong delusion, a spirit of false witness, being exposed. Simply pray that you'll (we should all consider doing it) have "the false way" removed from you, as King David did. God will honour that prayer and then things will be experienced differently. Saves all the to-ing and fro-ing of "pursuasive argument" from various "camps". The H Sp's power can be quiet in revelatory transformational impact. We are spiritual, right?
you wrote this:
[[If one Christian believes that angels are active today while another doesn't, that's ok. We can still get along. We can pray and serve side-by-side.]]
John cite for Scriptures where "angels" are used in the way taught by Todd Bentley.
I want to make a very important point. You won't find anywhere in scripture where it is forbidden. It's common for people to be nervous of manifestations or focuses that aren't word-for-word dictated in scripture. However, there is a big difference between scripture being silent on something and scripture forbidding something.
The correct handling of that will determine how large the playing field we have to work in is.
This topic is bigger than this simple point I just made, but for starters, don't dismiss something initially just because you don't find it verbatim in scripture. However, if scripture forbids it, throw it out.
http://www.pneumafoundation.org/article.jsp?art...
The Nature of the Colossian Heresy
The problem in Colosse was that the believers had lost their focus on Christ and were being distracted by other, even legitimate, things. Paul's answer was to keep directing their attention back to Christ as the source and fullness of everything they needed. They did not need to look to some other source for knowledge of God, For in Him [Christ] dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily (2:9). There was no need to look elsewhere for some plan or process for achieving spiritual maturity for, You are complete in Him who is the Head of all principality and power (2:10). They did not need to turn to other avenues for obtaining special wisdom and knowledge, for in Christ, Are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge (2:3).
What was it that was distracting the Colossians and causing them to lose their focus? It was a preoccupation with their own spirituality. They were obsessed with how to be "spiritual" and had become preoccupied with supernatural phenomena such as visions and angelic visitations (2:18). In Col. 2:18 Paul refers to the worship of angels and what he [the heretical teacher] has seen, i.e., visions (NIV). The word "worship" in this passage is a translation of the Greek word threskia and is not the normal word for "worship" in the New Testament. Besides Col. 2:18 it is found in only three other places in the New Testament, Acts 26:3 and James 1:26-27 where it is translated as "religion." The point seems to be that the Colossians had developed a "religious" fascination with angels and visions.
Why is this a problem? Their fascination with such sensational phenomena has distracted them from their one and only true Source, Jesus Christ. Because of their fascination with esoteric, sensational phenomena, they are no longer, Holding fast to the Head from whom all the body, nourished and knit together …grows with an increase that is from God (2:19) This is serious, for only by abiding in Christ and holding fast to Him can the Colossians experience the fullness of salvation and arrive at spiritual maturity.
To complicate matters, the spiritual experiences, with which they are so enamored, have become a basis for pride. They consider themselves a notch above other Christians because of these supernatural encounters. They are an elite group. Although they purport to be humble, it is a false humility that is betrayed by their attitudes and actions (2:18). Perhaps referring to their most prominent teacher, Paul says that he, like his followers, is vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind (2:18).
Could this be what happened to Todd Bentley?
High supernatural reality/high focus on Christ
High supernatural reality/poor focus on Christ
Limited supernatural reality/limited focus on Christ
I realize that's a bit overly simplistic, but the core argument is that the supernatural, signs, wonders, encounters, etc. will increase the more we focus on Christ.
johnburton
praytherevolution.com
johnburtondesign.com
719.231.6000
johnburton
praytherevolution.com
johnburtondesign.com
719.231.6000
Do consider, however, that different moves of God have different thrusts. Yes, Christ must always be the center. But, that doesn't mean that an event is to always be teaching driven. For example, there are many events that are filled with worship. You can go to a worship concert and just dance and shout and cry and lay on your face before the Lord all night long. Also, there may be prayer meetings. People intercede for the nations.
Any meeting will certainly have the Word threaded through it... in the worship songs, in the prayer, etc. But, it's possible to have an event without a standard 'sermon'. If Todd takes a night and just prays for everybody and mentions an angelic encounter, that doesn't mean he's off base.
johnburton
praytherevolution.com
johnburtondesign.com
719.231.6000
come on, let's be very direct here?
Here is what Todd Bentley said about "emma" and what a pastor's wife did. Please reconcile that that they claim and did with what is the work of the "Holy Ghost"?
[[Todd Bentley: During this visitation the pastor’s wife (it was an AOG church) got totally whacked by the Holy Ghost - she began running around barking like a dog or squawking like a chicken as a powerful prophetic spirit came on her. ]]
1Co 10:31 So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.
1Co 10:32 Give no offense to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God,
1Co 10:33 just as I try to please everyone in everything I do, not seeking my own advantage, but that of many, that they may be saved.
Again, please cite verses from the OT or NT where this sort of thing occurred, barking like a dog and squawking like a chicken?
Angels exist. Demons exist. Angels are assigned to the "heirs" of Salvation. Demons are assigned by the prince of demons to particular tasks too, to kill, steal and destroy life!
I cannot see in Scripture anywhere where the Holy Ghost, God Our Heavenly Father or Jesus Christ are lending an expression by Their Elect Angels to incite such offensive behavior in light of the verses cited above, can you?
If you can, please cite the verses and I will retract my position.
Tell me how what is being described above by Todd as to what happened to that pastor's wife by a "strong" prophetic spirit, reflects any one of these "fruits" of the Spirit:::>
Gal 5:16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.
Gal 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality,
Gal 5:20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions,
Gal 5:21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Gal 5:25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.
Gal 5:26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.
And another thing I need answered seeing you have a sense of what the Holy Ghost and the Elect Angels are doing at Lakeland with regard to Todd's experiences and communications with "emma".
If emma is an Elect Angel, how is it, as C. Peter Wagner and Bill Johnson report, Todd has had and continues to have struggles so grave with immoralities that emma failed to assist him? Where in the Bible does any one of God Elect Angels ever fail a mission they have been sent on for Our God or the Kingdom of God? Please cite some verses to underscore Angelic failure.
All of the angelic visitations that I see in Scripture always led an individual or nation away from the human failures of the flesh to the Salvation Christ died for us to receive.
Here is one place of Scripture citing from the Old Testament of a "national" Elect Angel and his mission:
Exo 23:20 "Behold, I send an angel before you to guard you on the way and to bring you to the place that I have prepared.
Exo 23:21 Pay careful attention to him and obey his voice; do not rebel against him, for he will not pardon your transgression, for my name is in him.
Exo 23:22 "But if you carefully obey his voice and do all that I say, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries.
Exo 23:23 "When my angel goes before you and brings you to the Amorites and the Hittites and the Perizzites and the Canaanites, the Hivites and the Jebusites, and I blot them out,
Exo 23:24 you shall not bow down to their gods nor serve them, nor do as they do, but you shall utterly overthrow them and break their pillars in pieces.
Exo 23:25 You shall serve the LORD your God, and he will bless your bread and your water, and I will take sickness away from among you.
Exo 23:26 None shall miscarry or be barren in your land; I will fulfill the number of your days.
Exo 23:27 I will send my terror before you and will throw into confusion all the people against whom you shall come, and I will make all your enemies turn their backs to you.
Exo 23:28 And I will send hornets before you, which shall drive out the Hivites, the Canaanites, and the Hittites from before you.
Exo 23:29 I will not drive them out from before you in one year, lest the land become desolate and the wild beasts multiply against you.
Exo 23:30 Little by little I will drive them out from before you, until you have increased and possess the land.
What do we see now happening at Lakeland? Something instead of "little by little" our enemies taking flight and Christ's Gospel coming forth with power and signs and wonders in a way, that at least, equals what Paul wrote about his own Apostolic work:::>
Rom 15:14 I myself am satisfied about you, my brothers, that you yourselves are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge and able to instruct one another.
Rom 15:15 But on some points I have written to you very boldly by way of reminder, because of the grace given me by God
Rom 15:16 to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.
Rom 15:17 In Christ Jesus, then, I have reason to be proud of my work for God.
Rom 15:18 For I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me to bring the Gentiles to obedience--by word and deed,
Rom 15:19 by the power of signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God--so that from Jerusalem and all the way around to Illyricum I have fulfilled the ministry of the gospel of Christ;
Rom 15:20 and thus I make it my ambition to preach the gospel, not where Christ has already been named, lest I build on someone else's foundation,
Rom 15:21 but as it is written, "Those who have never been told of him will see, and those who have never heard will understand."
Now for a "particular" and a direct "one on one" Elect Angel and Apostle encounter memorialized in Scripture, one I am sure Christians worldwide are all acquainted with:
Act 12:11 When Peter came to himself, he said, "Now I am sure that the Lord has sent his angel and rescued me from the hand of Herod and from all that the Jewish people were expecting." ....>
<....Act 12:17 But motioning to them with his hand to be silent, he described to them how the Lord had brought him out of the prison. And he said, "Tell these things to James and to the brothers." Then he departed and went to another place.
Act 12:18 Now when day came, there was no little disturbance among the soldiers over what had become of Peter.
Act 12:19 And after Herod searched for him and did not find him, he examined the sentries and ordered that they should be put to death. Then he went down from Judea to Caesarea and spent time there.
Now, why is it when the Holy Ghost has His way with His Apostles, they always focus on the Lord pressing the communities they are being sent too to receive the Gospel of the Kingdom and no mention or focus is given any weight to "one on one" encounters with angels? I would say it is fair to say that the Holy Ghost puts very little emphasis on one on one encounters with angels instead of what I perceive is just the opposite emphasis happening at Lakeland which it seems you defend?
I find "this way" you are continually stepping to the plate to justify and then defend these folks, John, suspect!
No one of us should be doing that, for ourselves or for others. We are not trying to keep afloat our personal "gifted" ministries are we? Our work is an election and a calling as I have noted to you directly in the past on other topics within this blogsphere of yours, like these two things:::>
Act 20:32 And now I commend you to God and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.
Act 20:33 I coveted no one's silver or gold or apparel.
Act 20:34 You yourselves know that these hands ministered to my necessities and to those who were with me.
Act 20:35 In all things I have shown you that by working hard in this way we must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he himself said, 'It is more blessed to give than to receive.'"
and this:
2Pe 1:10 Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.
2Pe 1:11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
So, in summing up and waiting a deliberate response, John, what do we have now?
We see an angel named emma came around and wasn't successful enough to keep Todd from falling into immoralities, immoralities mind you that C. Peter Wagner accuses Todd of lying to him about, [cf., Wagner's recent response] and Bill Johnson knew about several years before the Apostolic alignment ceremony with many many public ministries putting their own words on it, and a God ordained revival that God ordained that has now gone sideways, which seems to me puts God in a bad light and opens even more doors for our enemies to bring more accusations, not against God but against the Church and bring more offense upon the Jews, the Greeks, [nations] and the Church!
I guess we can both agree with this little saying then, right? OH THE SAINTS IN HEAVEN, SO FULL OF BLISS AND GLORY, OH THE SAINTS ON EARTH, WELL THAT IS ANOTHER STORY!
Regarding Emma and Todd failing- not seeing a failure after the occurrence of an angelic encounter in the Bible doesn't at all mean that we can't have one now. Man has free will and can easily reject any counsel of God to reform.
thanks for your comments.
Having been around awhile and engaged head to head with a few demonic forces and have had myself sent to me the visitations of Angels, I would not go so far as you have in your claims about me.
You need to take some time, step back and embrace "The Word of the Lord" coming out of me and repent yourself if you are going to justify what has happened, all in the Name of the Lord there at Lakeland by C. Peter Wagner, and companies of Apostles and Prophets in their commissioning of Todd Bentley and his wife into a "new move of God" on the world stage.
This whole affair is so discrediting the Grace of the God it makes me angry.
This whole affair is just a bunch of immature Christians trying to out do or better self imagines by bringing glory to themself and then when things went badly, they all bail out, back peddling and self justifiying their own foolish actions and speakings that night.
Let me remind you that Jesus Christ is the ruler of the kings of the earth, even today.
He has got all things under control.
He doesn't need me or you to complete the tasks for which He was sent to this world.
We ought to learn to sit at God's Righteous Right Hand and let God do His work according to His promise to us, as in, let Him kick the butt of our enemies as He has promised Christ and His Body, the Bride, the Wife of the Lamb He will do, has been doing throughout history and will do in the coming days, weeks, months and years of this final age of history.
Here, swallow this and have a joyous Peaceful day!
Psa 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool."
Psa 110:2 The LORD sends forth from Zion your mighty scepter. Rule in the midst of your enemies!
Psa 110:3 Your people will offer themselves freely on the day of your power, in holy garments; from the womb of the morning, the dew of your youth will be yours.
Psa 110:4 The LORD has sworn and will not change his mind, "You are a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek."
Psa 110:5 The Lord is at your right hand; he will shatter kings on the day of his wrath.
Psa 110:6 He will execute judgment among the nations, filling them with corpses; he will shatter chiefs over the wide earth.
Psa 110:7 He will drink from the brook by the way; therefore he will lift up his head.
Rom 15:13 May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope.
Rom 16:20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.
and finally, as you go about your joy full and peace full day today, go ahead and do this as well:::>
Act 20:32 And now I commend you to God and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.
Act 20:33 I coveted no one's silver or gold or apparel.
Act 20:34 You yourselves know that these hands ministered to my necessities and to those who were with me.
Act 20:35 In all things I have shown you that by working hard in this way we must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he himself said, 'It is more blessed to give than to receive.'"
and as you go about laying your own life down for others and "giving" to the weak among your circle of fellowship, instead of bleeding them dry by hype and emotional promises you cannot keep you also might get involved and get in the face of the demonic and let the Lord rule your house by His power and might and force!
Here:
Eph 3:8 To me, though I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
Eph 3:9 and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things,
Eph 3:10 so that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places.
Eph 3:11 This was according to the eternal purpose that he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord,
Eph 3:12 in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through our faith in him.
Eph 3:13 So I ask you not to lose heart over what I am suffering for you, which is your glory.
In the mean time, brother Todd and his wife and for that matter, all these folks who were involved in his alignment to be a mighty Apostle on the world stage, coming in the Name of the Lord, ah, those who clearly missed the "True Word of the Lord" for Todd and Shannon and the Lakeland revival, for whatever reason, now need this to happen to each of them and I warn you too Emrys, God is about to begin a shaking of His House first and He will not stop until He has purged and purified Her by removing all offenses out of Her and remove those lawless ones who speak the "Word of the Lord" falsely and foolishly and immaturely:::>
Gal 6:1 Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.
Gal 6:2 Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
Gal 6:3 For if anyone thinks he is something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself.
Gal 6:4 But let each one test his own work, and then his reason to boast will be in himself alone and not in his neighbor.
Gal 6:5 For each will have to bear his own load.
Emyrs, fair enough response from me, for you?
I suggest you come under the great murderer and adulterer king David and seek this from Heaven itself today and every day for the rest of your days:::>
1Ch 16:31 Let the heavens be glad, and let the earth rejoice, and let them say among the nations, "The LORD reigns!"
1Ch 16:32 Let the sea roar, and all that fills it; let the field exult, and everything in it!
1Ch 16:33 Then shall the trees of the forest sing for joy before the LORD, for he comes to judge the earth.
Two things. Firstly, can't you just talk? I mean without the sermonising and the Scripture blitzing.
Secondly, I believe we agree about one thing. God is using Lakeland to stir up and remove all the offensive out of His house...
For example, you said: This whole affair is so discrediting the Grace of the God it makes me angry.
It would have exhibited more grace, humility and maturity to say, "IN MY OPINION, this whole affair is so discrediting..."
You also said: ...justifiying their own foolish actions and speakings that night.
In your opinion their actions may have been foolish, but what if another believer feels their actions weren't foolish?
Remember the scripture: Matthew 5:22 (NKJV)
But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.
It seems as if you have an ax to grind with people... that's not healthy. Why do you act so rudely and aggressively when people don't perform as you feel they should? Why are you so mad at people who may have given a prophetic word that was missed? Why are you so excited that God is going to judge people? You should be crying out for mercy!
let your yes be yes and your no be no, thank you. I will speak as I am directed. You do the same yourself quite well as is event here:
''It seems as if you have an ax to grind with people... that's not healthy. Why do you act so rudely and aggressively when people don't perform as you feel they should? Why are you so mad at people who may have given a prophetic word that was missed? Why are you so excited that God is going to judge people? You should be crying out for mercy!''
now, to answer your questions.
No, my work is at Eph. 3:8-12 and Romans 1:5 when it comes to rulers and authorities and equipping the Saints for the work of service. No compromise on that one!
If anyone wants to take me to task, so be it. go at it. Rude? Who is being rude? I am speaking the Truth! Am I sorry it is emotionally upsetting for some? No.
Yes, you got that right, I am indeed mad at some who you believe "gave" a prophetic word. They simply did not a prophetic word. It is your imagination that those events that night that GodTV recorded and were put on YouTube for the general public to see and listen to were "prophetic" words of the Living God. I will say it now as I have before, those were not God's Words and that was a sad event that happened at Lakeland. We have clear and unequivocal warrants as to God's Words and the Prophetic. What we witnessed was pathetic words from some folks who now, if they would be honest, are totally humiliated by their involvement. They have been justifying themselves and will continue to "justify" what they personally got caught up in in the moments that night. Their "ministries" are their own god projects and it is sad what the fruit is now about it.
Cite or point to any one of those leaders who have repented and taken personal responsibility for their part in that event? I haven't as yet been directed to that. Am I hopeful it will come about? Yes.
You are crazy and high on drugs if you, for one moment, think I take lightly the judgment of God.
I do not take lightly the Judgment of God, nor His chastening, which I also have endured!
Tell me what is pleasant about these verses John and then go ahead and insinuate that I am happy about the Judgment of God when it comes on any soul?
Psa 50:16 But to the wicked God says: "What right have you to recite my statutes or take my covenant on your lips?
Psa 50:17 For you hate discipline, and you cast my words behind you.
Psa 50:18 If you see a thief, you are pleased with him, and you keep company with adulterers.
Psa 50:19 "You give your mouth free rein for evil, and your tongue frames deceit.
Psa 50:20 You sit and speak against your brother; you slander your own mother's son.
Psa 50:21 These things you have done, and I have been silent; you thought that I was one like yourself. But now I rebuke you and lay the charge before you.
Psa 50:22 "Mark this, then, you who forget God, lest I tear you apart, and there be none to deliver!
Psa 50:23 The one who offers thanksgiving as his sacrifice glorifies me; to one who orders his way rightly I will show the salvation of God!"
you quoted Matthew 5.
Here's KJV and note, "without a cause":
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
I certainly do have a cause to be angry. You haven't noticed the scorn of God's people these days? I believe I am well within my right to this reason to be angry with that foolishness displayed that night. It's self evident by what has been happening since, don't you think?
I believe I am right on track when I quote these verses:
Eph 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
Eph 5:12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.
Eph 5:13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.
Eph 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
Eph 5:15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,
Eph 5:16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
Emrys, for your information, I don't believe I have anything quite like the Word of God to offer, so, pardon me, I believe I will continue quoting and referencing the Scripture to carry my intent forth, thank you. You can judge what I say any ol' way you like as if that means anything in light of the severity of these matters we are grappling with in these days of evil.
What? You do not enjoy being refreshed and reminded what God's Word has to say about errors in the Church?
Ok, this is the whole point. No, you really don't have a reason to be angry with that. First, you presume it's foolishness, when my opinion is that there were wonderful people of God who acted in love... they wanted to encourage and cover Todd. Second, you are making a big deal out of something that is not that important. We're not talking heresy or anything like that here. And even if it were, we should have grace... pray and intercede for the person involved.
You can't handle this coming from one such as I am:::>
Eph 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
Or::::>
Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jud 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Jud 1:8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
I will say it again and you can if you like, take it to heart if you want too, God is on the move and it's not pretty:
Heb 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
Heb 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
Heb 12:27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.
Let the Lord melt your heart some and show you He prefers mercy over judgment. I am not saying He is a soft touch but He is fathomless mercy and love.
He can come to us like an angel of light and completely hoodwink us as an angel of the LORD sent from the very throne of God.
The Bible exhorts all believers in the body ,more so those overseeing the flock, to test the spirits if they be of God. How does one test the spirits in the absence of the gift of discerning of spirits?
Ask the spirit (Not the vessel being used) whether Jesus the Christ came in bodily form and dwelt among men. It is important that the full name of our Lord Jesus Christ is used in the light of many 'Jesuses'. A strong unequivocal positive answer to the question from the source of the manifestation tells it is of God. Any evasive, silent or outright negative response is a sure sign of a deceiving spirit.
The test must be done with the full cooperation of the person under the influence. However the person must not answer the question but listen for any voiced reply in their mind.
I do not know who you are or your position in the "ordained" Ministry crowd. And quite frankly I am not in the least impressed with you anyway as obviously you are not very impressed with me.
You do seem to become even more suspect to me now.
Let me remind you of a portion of the Word you seem to not want to embrace.
If you were considering the Words of Scripture I have been using your foolish little bite there would not have been. But seeing you did bite, I recommend you bite on this for awhile and chew on it until it sinks down into your spiritual being seeing you quoted from James, here is more of James then:::>
Jas 3:1 Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.
Jas 3:2 For we all stumble in many ways. And if anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle his whole body.
Every one of those folks on stage that infamous night captured by GodTV of Todd's alignment were there because they passed over to the realm spoken about above. They were representatives of Christ's Ordained Crowd.
No one for a moment, at least those that I am aware of, are happy about what has come after that night.
The sadness is this that an opportunity has been given to our enemies to distract some from the Grace and Mercy and Peace of God you so desperately are supposedly in favor of.
There is clear fault to bear here. The strict harshness and scorn coming from God's people is reserved for those who would be a Teacher or Preacher of Christ's Grace, Mercy and Peace on the world stage today.
Again, as John and I have already come to agree on together, consider this as the mandate for this whole bunch, who, themselves now by their continual self justifications, are very suspect even more so that they each chose to come on stage that night and be a participator in the alignment to Apostolic Authority of Todd Bentley. Jesus Christ is the Apostle. He has not lost any of His Power or Authority. He is going to do just fine. He is not very worried about the mess we Christians make. He has already covered our mistakes. This matter has nothing to do with our juvenile understanding of the Gospel of the Kingdom. It has everything to do with the Ordination of ill-prepared brother to such a "high" office reflective of Our Dear Lord Jesus Christ! To which each and everyone of those folks are now subject to James' higher standard. Are you going to now continue to insinuate that is not relevant Emrys?
Gal 6:1 Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.
Gal 6:2 Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
Gal 6:3 For if anyone thinks he is something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself.
Gal 6:4 But let each one test his own work, and then his reason to boast will be in himself alone and not in his neighbor.
Gal 6:5 For each will have to bear his own load.
?????????????????
"Prophecy is also conditional. Someone may have a prophecy given that they are going to bring revival to a specific nation... and that word may be confirmed many times... but, if that person exercises his free will to fall into sin, that prophecy won't come to pass."
I don't think Jonah would agree with this statement. Despite Jonah's efforts to exercise his "free will" and to let the people of Nineveh receive God's just punishment for their sins,God had another purpose in the situation. God achieved His glory in their repentance, not in their punishment. Jonah knew this would happen, and he tried everything he could to stop it. He even became angry with God when it did happen. His story is a greater testament to the sovereignty of God than it is to the free will of man. I have heard Sproul quoted "I have free will. God has free will. When my will collides with His will, He wins."
Prophecies that are truly from God will come to pass. If someone prophesies with the claim of "Thus Saith the Lord", and it does not come to pass, Deut. 18:18-22 tells that they have spoken presumptuously, i.e. they are not a prophet of God.
If someone prophecies that I am called to minister to a certain people group as a missionary, but I refuse, then that prophecy won't come to pass.
Remember in Jonah there was a prophetic word that failed to come to pass:
“Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown”
Due to man's response, that prophecy did not happen.
This is why fasting, intercession and hearing God are so important. We cry out for mercy, for God to hold back his judgment, we intercede for those who are destined for hell... but our intervention can change that destiny.
Remember Moses, for example... he was called to lead the Israelites into the Promised Land. He failed due to man's uprising against Caleb and Joshua. That generation was called to enter that land, but they died.
Many fail to fulfill the prophetic destiny on their lives... due to their disobedience. We must diligently steward God's prophetic word in our lives.
First, for the record, I'm not 'Craig' above but rather Craig Dorsheimer formerly known as Lee who is blogging here under the moniker of 'CraigD.'
John, you and I have already discussed the issue of Jonah on Kim Olsen's site yet you refuse to acknowledge the Truth. Why is that? Do you not love the Word of God which is Jesus?
So, again regarding Jonah: it's really quite easy if you think about this logically. Why is it that Jonah was resistant to deliver this 'word' to the Ninevites? They were the enemies of Judah! However, God made sure Jonah delivered the prophecy to Nineveh and the result was that they were saved once they repented and fasted.
Jonah's reluctance is obvious when you read this:
1 But Jonah was greatly displeased and became angry. 2 He prayed to the LORD, "O LORD, is this not what I said when I was still at home? That is why I was so quick to flee to Tarshish. I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity. [Jonah 4:1-2 NIV]
Then when you read further Jonah was so despondent he wanted death.
Regarding the Moses example: Moses was not promised to ENTER the promised land but rather to LEAD to it. And, he did lead them to it.
False prophets and false teachers have always been rejected by God, and are not a part of the body of Christ. The entire New Apostolic Reformation is false and apostate! Everyone involved should repent, renounce, and separate--even if it costs everything.
For to lose everything for Jesus Christ is to lose nothing and gain everything.
I pray that God will be merciful and open your eyes and ears to the truth of His word and saving grace.
There's a huge difference between false prophecy and poor prophecy. False prophecy is demonic and is meant to mislead. Poor prophecy is due to our human weakness. We can fail.
Also, prophecy is conditional. The failure of a prophecy may actually be due to the fault of the one receiving the prophecy as opposed to the one giving it.
It's ok to say "In my opinion I believe the New Apostolic Reformation is false...", but it's immature and irresponsible to assume to have the final call for all of Christianity. Many wonderful Christian brothers and sisters of yours disagree with your position. It's ok to disagree and we must be humble enough to admit that we may be wrong in an area.
"You may say in your heart, How will we know the word which the LORD has not spoken? When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him" (Deuteronomy 18:21-22).
"Then the LORD said to me, 'The prophets are prophesying falsehood in My name I have neither sent them nor commanded them nor spoken to them; they are prophesying to you a false vision, divination, futility and the deception of their own minds'" (Jeremiah 14:14).
And Jesus warned, ""Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves" (Matthew 7:15).
Is there a "huge difference" between a lie and a white lie? A lie is a lie, regardless of the source. All false prophets are liars.
Therefore, John, please show me one Scripture in the Bible where God approved of a "poor prophecy."
Prophesy is a gift and it must be practiced and learned just like any other gift.
1 Corinthians 14:29 (NKJV) Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge.
You wouldn't deem a prophet false in such a situation, but more seasoned prophets would judge and them steer the meeting accordingly.
Dake says this: If any message in tongues or prophecy does not harmonize with the Bible, or does not come to pass, then it is to be judged false and the person said to be speaking by his own spirit Dake's Annotated Reference Bible.
We can speak of our own spirit... but that doesn't mean we are speaking to intentionally mislead. We can miss it. Many people have to learn how to hear God... how to know if it's God speaking vs. their own thoughts. It's a learning process.
Here's what Wayne Grudem says:
(In 1 Cor) the congregation would simply evaluate the prophecy and form opinions about it. Some of it might be very valuable and some of it not. The process is understandable only if there is a difference in the kind of speech envisioned by the Old Testament and that in 1 Corinthians. The prophets at Corinth must not have been thought to speak with divine authority attaching to their actual words. Their prophecies were subject to evaluation and questioning at every point. New Testament Christians were only thought to be speaking merely human words to report something that God had brought to mind.
Basically, New Testament prophecy is not God's very words, but rather it's the report of something God reveals to the Christian. The 'report' is the fallible part as it's transmitted via human words after human processing.
The term apokalypto in 1 Cor 14:30 does not require us to think that a Christian prophet who reported something God had revealed would be speaking the very words of God.
In 1 Cor 14:29 it seems that the prophet's words could be challenged and questioned, and that the prophet could at times be wrong. Yet there is no indication that an occasional mistake would make him a 'false prophet'.
The prophecy we find in 1 Corinthians, while it may have been prompted by a 'revelation' from God, had only the authority of the merely human words in which it was spoken. The prophet could err, could misinterpret, and could be questioned or challenged at any point.
However, even in the OT they had a school of prophets. Why did they need a school if every prophetic word was perfect...?
Also, where in Scripture does it say or even imply that prophecy "must be practiced and learned just like any other gift."
I can't imagine you've been 100% accurate on every prophecy you've given. Have you?
Will you show me one Scripture in the Bible where God approved of a "poor prophecy"?
Also, where in Scripture does it say or even imply that prophecy "must be practiced and learned just like any other gift."
Also, you stated above that, "Basically, New Testament prophecy is not God's very words, but rather it's the report of something God reveals to the Christian. The 'report' is the fallible part as it's transmitted via human words after human processing."
How do you justify that in light of 2 Timothy 3:16-17?
"All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."
Your 2 Tim scripture has nothing to do with prophecy. That's talking about scripture.
Read that book. It'll help quite a bit. It was very revealing for me.
We're Christians, so we're really not supposed to be involved in debate. We're on the same team. Blessings!
With the exception of sharing what God has already revealed in His word, I have never delivered a prophecy. I am not a prophet, nor have I ever claimed to be.
If I may ask just two questions:
1. Specifically, what is a false prophecy?
2. In light of Deuteronomy 18:21-22 and Matthew 24:24, when is someone considered a false prophet?
Thanks
This is what Matt 24:24 clearly indicates.
Also, keep in mind, OT 'Prophet' equals NT 'Apostle', specifically the apostles that wrote and finished the canon of scripture.
We are all called to prophesy, and I'd strongly encourage you (as Paul did) to operate in this gift. It's very, very important. It's the only way, at times, we can successfully encourage another or help them grow via God given confirmation.
Thank you for taking the time to reply. I agree with you that false prophecy draws the believer away from the truth of God's word. False prophets draw attention away from the true God of the Bible to false "gods" (Deuteronomy chapter 13).
But your stating that "'false' doesn't mean wrong" and "We all get it wrong" is both confusing and disturbing.
The dictionary definition of the word "false" is: untrue, erroneous, deceptive, counterfeit, etc. According to the Bible, "false prophets" are defined as:
-those who pretend to be sent by God (Jeremiah 23:17-18; 31)
-not sent by or commissioned by God (Jeremiah 14:14)
-used by God to test the faith of the believer (Deuteronomy 13:3)
In the Bible, false prophets are described as:
-treacherous (Zephaniah 3:4)
-covetous (Micah 3:11)
-crafty (Matthew 7:15)
-drunken (Isaiah 28:7)
-wicked and profane (Jeremiah 23:11-14)
-foolish (Ezekiel 13:2)
-compared to the wind, void of the word (Jeremiah 5:13)
-influenced by evil spirits (1 Kings 22:21-22)
Again, according to the Bible, false prophets:
-prophesied falsely (Jeremiah 5:31)
-tell lies in the name of the Lord (Jeremiah 14:14)
-prophesied from their own heart (Jeremiah 23:16; 26; Ezekiel 13:2)
-prophesied in the name of false gods (Jeremiah 2:8)
-pretended to have dreams (Jeremiah 23:28-32)
-deceived by God as judgement (Ezekiel 14:9)
Elsewhere in the Bible, false prophets:
-lead people into error (Jeremiah 23:13; Micah 3:5)
-conspire to deceive and steal from precious souls (Ezekiel 22:25)
-followed after and praised (Jeremiah 5:31; Luke 6:26)
-involved people in their own ruin (Isaiah 9:15-16)
-demonstrate signs and wonders and mislead (Matthew 24:24)
-introduce destructive heresies; deny Jesus Christ (2 Peter 2:1)
And how does one detect a false prophet? The Bible provides the answers:
-Deuteronomy chapter 13
-Deuteronomy 18:21-22
-Matthew 7:15
-1 Thessalonians 5:21
-1 John 4:1-3
God's word clearly demonstrates that the word "false" has not changed. It still means the same as it did thousands of years ago.
The Bible draws a clear distinction between a true and false prophet. With God, there is no margin for error, no excuses, and no justification for a false prophecy. It only takes one lie to be a liar. One is either a true prophet of God or a false prophet.
And unless there is sincere repentance, all false prophets will be dealt with severely by Jesus Christ on judgement day:
"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS'" (Matthew 7:22-23, NASB).
In Christian love,
Bud
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Prophecy is not like automatic writing; you don't become an automaton and speak like a robot without your own consciousness being involved. You have to be yielded and open to God speaking. However, you have the choice to speak it forth using your own intelligence. Or you have the choice not to speak. A seasoned prophet will be given a word sometimes that he judges is not timely. Or there may be another reason he withholds it. This comes through practice and maturity.
Point is, we are not robots. You wouldn't slate someone for making an error while preaching; you would just say it's human error. Why not apply the same reason to prophecy? Also, not everyone who prophesies holds the fivefold office of prophet.
You need to learn the difference between false and fallible, my brother.
Thank you for taking the time to reply. I agree with you that false prophecy draws the believer away from the truth of God's word. False prophets draw attention away from the true God of the Bible to false "gods" (Deuteronomy chapter 13).
But your stating that "'false' doesn't mean wrong" and "We all get it wrong" is both confusing and disturbing.
The dictionary definition of the word "false" is: untrue, erroneous, deceptive, counterfeit, etc. According to the Bible, "false prophets" are defined as:
-those who pretend to be sent by God (Jeremiah 23:17-18; 31)
-not sent by or commissioned by God (Jeremiah 14:14)
-used by God to test the faith of the believer (Deuteronomy 13:3)
In the Bible, false prophets are described as:
-treacherous (Zephaniah 3:4)
-covetous (Micah 3:11)
-crafty (Matthew 7:15)
-drunken (Isaiah 28:7)
-wicked and profane (Jeremiah 23:11-14)
-foolish (Ezekiel 13:2)
-compared to the wind, void of the word (Jeremiah 5:13)
-influenced by evil spirits (1 Kings 22:21-22)
Again, according to the Bible, false prophets:
-prophesied falsely (Jeremiah 5:31)
-tell lies in the name of the Lord (Jeremiah 14:14)
-prophesied from their own heart (Jeremiah 23:16; 26; Ezekiel 13:2)
-prophesied in the name of false gods (Jeremiah 2:8)
-pretended to have dreams (Jeremiah 23:28-32)
-deceived by God as judgement (Ezekiel 14:9)
Elsewhere in the Bible, false prophets:
-lead people into error (Jeremiah 23:13; Micah 3:5)
-conspire to deceive and steal from precious souls (Ezekiel 22:25)
-followed after and praised (Jeremiah 5:31; Luke 6:26)
-involved people in their own ruin (Isaiah 9:15-16)
-demonstrate signs and wonders and mislead (Matthew 24:24)
-introduce destructive heresies; deny Jesus Christ (2 Peter 2:1)
And how does one detect a false prophet? The Bible provides the answers:
-Deuteronomy chapter 13
-Deuteronomy 18:21-22
-Matthew 7:15
-1 Thessalonians 5:21
-1 John 4:1-3
God's word clearly demonstrates that the word "false" has not changed. It still means the same as it did thousands of years ago.
The Bible draws a clear distinction between a true and false prophet. With God, there is no margin for error, no excuses, and no justification for a false prophecy. It only takes one lie to be a liar. One is either a true prophet of God or a false prophet.
And unless there is sincere repentance, all false prophets will be dealt with severely by Jesus Christ on judgement day:
"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS'" (Matthew 7:22-23, NASB).
In Christian love,
Bud
I have some comments and questions for you.
You wrote: "I have also been taught that we never have enogh information to make a acurate judgement, I guess that is why God said not to:)"
First, where in the Bible does God command the believer NOT to judge prophecies and teachings? And if the prophecies and teachings are false, what does God command the believer to do?
Second, if a man claims to be a prophet of God, and he delivers a prophecy in the name of God, but the prophecy fails, how much more information is needed to pronounce the man a false prophet? God has already shown believers' how to spot a false prophet (Deuteronomy 18:21-22; 2 Peter 2:1-3; 2 John 1:9-10).
Third, if a man or woman claims to be a Christian, but denies the Trinity or the deity of Jesus Christ, what does God command the Christian to do?
You wrote: "If Stacey did make a mistake or not it is up to Holy Spirit to lead her to repentence and that is between her God. We as Christians have the responsiblity to love one another and pray for one another. God bless you and Ms. Campbell."
Teresa, in her "Public Statement Regarding Prophecy To Todd Bentley," Stacey Campbell stated that,
"I gave Todd Bentley a public prophetic word, which was broadcast around the world through GodTV" and that "I prophesied publicly on GodTV that Todd Bentley would be a 'first fruits' of a generation that would walk both in the anointing and the glory of God."
However, during Todd Bentley's "Commissioning," Stacey Campbell prophesied in part that:
"Todd, I have chosen you because of your background; because of your background; because of your background, to release My nature when you release My gifts; to become a living epistle like the Word that became flesh, and people saw the glory of God.
"And I will use you to father a movement that operates in such revival power, but it is coming out of the very nature and heart of God. And you will teach people how to behold God until they are transformed from glory to glory; from compassion to mercy, to lovingkindness to truth, to justice, to forgiveness. And a whole generation will move in such signs and wonders and power, but everyone will give glory to God."
Stacey Campbell's prophecy was not a mere mistake, it was a false prophecy. Furthermore, it attempted to elevate Todd Bentley to the same level as Jesus Christ.
Please remember that according to the Bible, it only takes one false prophecy to be a false prophet (Deuteronomy 18:21-22).
And while only God can open her eyes and ears to the truth and repentance, in the meantime, God commands Christians to guard and protect the body of Christ by exposing false prophets and false teachers (Matthew 7:15; Matthew chapter 24; Romans 16:17-18; Acts 20:27-31; 1 Timothy 6:3-5; Colossians 2:8; Titus 1:9; Ephesians 5:11; Jude 3).
In Christian love,
Bud
I agree with Bud Press.
Bud wrote:
Furthermore, it attempted to elevate Todd Bentley to the same level as Jesus Christ.
This is true and so did Georgian Banov who followed her. I wrote an article here on Banov:
http://kimolsen.wordpress.com/2008/07/01/george...
There is only one true anointing -- the Holy Spirit indwelling -- but there are counterfeits [1 John 2:27].
(I *am* a heretic - Not only am I a radical laid down lover of Jesus, I also speak in tongues, I'm a pastor, I prophesy, and <gasp> I *like* Todd Bentley! Those things tend to make one a heretic in Bud's book (which reads quite a bit different from mine...))
These 'prophets' claimed God said to Todd "I'm going to use you in a big way." I personally don't believe they are prophets of God.
Regarding your question below, if you read my article it answers it.
I would really like your take on the following. Here's post by Keith Gibson reposted on another site with a response from a ritual magick practitioner and Thelemic who said Keith (who lives in KC near IHOP) was correct in his analysis. It speaks of occultic roots of some of the charismatic beliefs:
http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/200...
Here is 'Ananael Qaa's response in a post in his own site:
http://ananael.blogspot.com/2008/09/christian-w...
Secondly, if you don't know anything about the subject yourself, why are you out here talking about it? Appeals to authority (other than the Lord) *really* don't move me or impress me.
Thirdly, I'm shocked that a Christian would accept judgment of other Christians from an occultist (I'm sure the Thelemic guy is getting a HOOT out of the scrambling Christians, too.)
http://r180.com/blog/blog/2008/09/11/todd-bentl...
It's rather presumptuous of you to say I know nothing of the subject, isn't it? How would you know? My appeal is to the Lord through His Word which is to be our plumb line.
On your #3, the "Thelemic guy" is merely agreeing with Pastor Keith Gibson's post. I agree with Keith having studied New Age and Theosophy myself.
If you know something about the subject at hand, then please discuss it in the authority Christ died to give you, rather than appealing to someone else's authority.
You're using the thelemic guy's opinion to bolster Keith's relative level of authority on the subject. ::shrugs:: It doesn't matter to me... but it should with you.
I was an occultist for ten years (and in some ways for my whole life until I was saved). I didn't "study" it, I lived it. I read the Bible and it's my plumb line - that's why I embrace Jesus and all the good things He desires to give us.
Thank you, your apology is accepted. Keith Gibson wrote the article. I agree with his stance on the issue. Modern 'spiritual warfare' as outlined in this article is unbiblical -- the Bible being my authority. I also agree with the Thelemic's stance especially as he noted the hypocracy or ignorance of Christians when they malign him when they are using this same 'force.'
38But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things. [Daniel 11:38 KJV]
Given your background as an occultist, do you not see that this man [his given name is Scott] is speaking truth in his comment on that thread regarding this? In all honesty you cannot deny that, can you?
place or means of safety, protection, refuge, stronghold
1. place of safety, fastness, harbour, stronghold
2. refuge (of God) (fig.)
3. human protection (fig.)
That really has nothing at all to do with the way we use the word "forces" today.
Back up a few verses - start reading at verse 29, through the end. In context that verse takes on a different meaning than I think you're inferring. That passage also talks about how the people who know God shall be strong, and carry out great exploits :)
Given my background in the occult, I embrace the real as shown in Scripture - not the counterfeit. I do not reject God because the devil tries to mimic Him - why would I?
a radical laid down lover of Jesus
Can you explain this to me -- especially the 'laid down' part?
Link: http://iamhealed.net/2008/09/17/laid-down-lover/
I am betting that Todd will come back. Yes, go ahead and shoot me for gambling...
"All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work" (2 Timothy 3:16-17).
For reminding us that this call to walk in the Glory of God is OUR call corporate and that Todd and Shonna as high profile leaders have an invitation to respond here as we all do regarding whether or not we will align with God and humble ourselves to acknowledge that WE DESPERATELY NEED TRANSFORMATION OF HEART to enter into the fulness of His call to us....us who observe resonate with: "there but for the GRACE of God go we ALL"
THANKYOU for exhorting us to PRAY and RESPOND in LOVE and PURITY of heart to intercede for them and for the us all as a Body that we may GROW UP IN HIM and fulfill the destiny on our generation to walk in the gifts/annointing and the GLORY of God. AS WE SUBMIT to God's refining fires of PURIFICATION sent and designed to root out EVERYTHING that separates us from oneness with Him and one another (Jn 17) we take heed to this disciplinary action of the Lord knowing that we ALL have areas of our lives that need to be refined and purged in order for us to reflect HIS GLORY in a way of which HE IS WORTHY. God help us as we seek to respond in humility and the fear of the Lord - may this example of a leader in the Body of Christ be the beginning of WISDOM to us all - the wisdom of humility and obedience and a surrendered life THAT HE WOULD RECEIVE HIS INHERITANCE IN AND THROUGH US FOR HIS GLORY!
For reminding us that this call to walk in the Glory of God is OUR call corporate and that Todd and Shonnah as high profile leaders have an invitation to respond here as we all do regarding whether or not we will align with God and humble ourselves to acknowledge that WE DESPERATELY NEED TRANSFORMATION OF HEART to enter into the fulness of His call to us....us who observe resonate with: "there but for the GRACE of God go we ALL"
THANKYOU for exhorting us to PRAY and RESPOND in LOVE and PURITY of heart to intercede for them and for the us all as a Body that we may GROW UP IN HIM and fulfill the destiny on our generation to walk in the gifts/annointing and the GLORY of God. AS WE SUBMIT to God's refining fires of PURIFICATION sent and designed to root out EVERYTHING that separates us from oneness with Him and one another (Jn 17) we take heed to this disciplinary action of the Lord knowing that we ALL have areas of our lives that need to be refined and purged in order for us to reflect HIS GLORY in a way of which HE IS WORTHY. God help us as we seek to respond in humility and the fear of the Lord - may this example of a leader in the Body of Christ be the beginning of WISDOM to us all - the wisdom of humility and obedience and a surrendered life THAT HE WOULD RECEIVE HIS INHERITANCE IN AND THROUGH US FOR HIS GLORY!