John Burton Ministries - Latest Comments in Mobile Podcast : Ministers Should Email Often : 25% off

Re: Mobile Podcast : Ministers Should Email Often : 25% off

spiritofburning — Mon, 20 Oct 2008 11:21:24 -0000

A Tale of Three Kings is an excellent book. I would recommend it to anyone who is grappling with this issue.

You don't believe that all Christians have equal roles. If you are referring to varying degrees of responsibility dependent upon spiritual maturity, then I wholeheartedly agree. There is an element to our walk with God that has the potential (not as a rule) to affect the influence we have with others.

However, Scripture is also clear (Acts 10:34) that God does is not a "respecter of persons" -- meaning, He doesn't play favorites.

I'll take you up on the offer to read your book.

I think it's evident we differ greatly in our views of spiritual authority, but that's alright. My goal wasn't to defeat an opposing viewpoint. I just wanted to find out a little more about what you believe.

Have a great day, brother!

Re: Mobile Podcast : Ministers Should Email Often : 25% off

r180 — Mon, 20 Oct 2008 11:06:45 -0000

Yep, my kids LOVE Settlers.

You should check out my book Covens in the Church. I hit this issue head on as I talk about our appropriate response to authority. It's $5.00 to download it instantly.

I don't believe we all have equal roles... I think that's an idea that might make us feel better about ourselves, but it can be rooted in pride. God always has chosen certain people to lead others. The others are called to be in position and responsive.

Paul said to "Follow me as I follow Christ". That's a statement that would sound quite arrogant if we heard someone say it today.

The scripture in Hebrews 13 is so very clear... there are leaders in our lives that we are to be very alert to.

I believe we are to be obedient not only to Christian leaders, but actually, all leadership has been established by God. We should never gossip about the President of the United States, make it difficult for our boss at work to lead or be AWOL in the military.

For leaders, it's key to be servant leaders. Lead as Jesus would. serve. Lay down your life for them. However, we as those under authority don't determine the degree of our submission on the degree of our leader's competence.

The books A Tale of Three Kings and Undercover are excellent resources as well.

You can get my book at www.praytherevolution.com/resources.htm if you'd like to check it out.

Re: Mobile Podcast : Ministers Should Email Often : 25% off

spiritofburning — Mon, 20 Oct 2008 10:51:58 -0000

I'll tell them hi. They're proud of introducing your family to Settlers of Catan. If you ever find yourself up in Minnesota, we'll need to have a Settlers Saturday.

I agree that the issue is mission completion. The goal should be the discipling of people in every nation, tribe, and language. As Sid Roth says, "We want everyone to be red hot for the Messiah!" I love that man.

From my study of the New Testament, I only see one vision that believers everywhere are called to fulfill. It's the Great Commission. When persecution broke out in Jerusalem and believers were spread throughout the region, the goal was spreading the message of Christ. The method was organic and natural. I have a hard time envisioning the fleeing Christians trying to find their spiritual covering along the way before they could launch out and proclaim the gospel.

We do see a hierarchical structure of leadership in the Old Testament, but we need to determine if those leaders (i.e. Moses, Joshua, David) were (a) examples for new covenant believers or (b) types of Christ, foreshadowing the coming of the perfect leader under whom all believers would freely function.

Don't get me wrong. I think submission is an important aspect to the Christian life. However, much of the "spiritual covering" teaching I've experienced has stressed "faith" (which sometimes means blind obedience) as a means to control.

Mutual submission is a costly thing to practice. It means being open to receiving rebuke and correction. It is an accepted practice today for a pastor to rebuke someone below them. However, would most pastors be willing to receive a genuine rebuke (i.e. not coming from bitterness or offense) from someone in their congregation?

While there are some leaders who would accept it, most pastors would consider that rebellion and presumption.

Ultimately, a discussion of spiritual authority seeks to answer the question: Is it right for someone to exercise authority over another man? Is everyone equal in the kingdom of God or does God structure His family using a top-down hierarchy?

Matthew 20:25-26
Jesus called them to Himself and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. It is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant..."

Re: Mobile Podcast : Ministers Should Email Often : 25% off

r180 — Mon, 20 Oct 2008 10:15:18 -0000

Hi! Tell Steven and Jo hi for me.

More important than spiritual covering (and I do believe that is important) is mission completion. For me, it's critical that we are in position, responsive and moving in alignment with those God has called us to run the race with.

We see all throughout scripture God calling a single person and then calling others to serve the vision as it's facilitated through that person.

Simply, if we abandon our posts because of the inconvenience of the call, woundedness, disagreement, etc., we put the mission greatly at risk.

Under Moses, the people (except Joshua and Caleb) rebelled and refused to follow the instruction to enter the Promised Land. They died and the mission was aborted.

Under Joshua we see precision. There was clear rank and order. The call of the leaders was clear and urgent, and the responsiveness of the people was immediate.

We are called to submit to our authorities. I don't think it's fully biblical to only propose that we submit one to another. God establishes authority and that authority will have a mission to fulfill... and will cast the vision and call the people to a place of action.

Really, it's a trust issue. As we trust God's process and order, we'll follow along and react accordingly. When we lose trust, we may attempt to take matters into our own hands and forgo due process. Humans are fallible... leaders will fail, hurt us, disappoint, etc. The correct reaction isn't to vacate, but rather to serve, trust and allow God to sort it out. As we do that, God will most certainly respond and we'll look back astonished at how it all ended up. That's not to say it will always be smooth and easy. Often God will call people out of churches, and often people will have to deal with pain, but the key is a submissive heart, serving the mission and having the heart of an intercessor for everybody involved. As we do that, God will take care of everything.

Hebrews 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

Re: Mobile Podcast : Ministers Should Email Often : 25% off

spiritofburning — Mon, 20 Oct 2008 09:38:07 -0000

Your site looks great. I'm good friends with Steven and Jo Andrews, they were in Intro to IHOP with you earlier this year.

I've been tracking your site lately and I'm definitely impressed with your marketing edge and the dedication you have to this site.

I think the big issue that has been stirred up with "Pagan Christianity" is the issue of spiritual authority within the church. Specifically, does Scripture support a top-down, hierarchical structure of human leadership in the church?

I've read some material that came out of the Shepherding Movement of the 1960s and 1970s. This is where the "spiritual covering" ideology became prevalent in the church today. It seems to have been born out of the good intention to protect new Christians from falling away.

I've also read some material coming out of the organic Church movement. In "Reimaging Church" (reconstruction to Pagan Christianity's deconstruction), Frank Viola presents a model of authority that is mutually submissive instead of unilaterally submissive. The concept is new to me, but intriguing.

There is a measure of "spiritual authority" that comes with spiritual maturity. However, Frank Viola presents the concept that each believer should be submissive to one another, recognizing Christ as the supreme source of authority.

I'm on a journey with all of this. I don't have all the answers. As such, I'd be interested to hear how you would explain the modern-day spiritual authority/covering idea with Paul's exhortations to "submit yourselves one to another."

Bless you, brother!

Re: Mobile Podcast : Ministers Should Email Often : 25% off

r180 — Sat, 18 Oct 2008 00:55:40 -0000

I wrote on this in my book Covens in the Church. There is a temptation in the church to abandon our posts because of any number of issues. There are some who are calling for people to leave institutional church because of failed or blind or abusive leadership.

We have to be careful about becoming independant and separated from those who God has called us to run the race with.

I did a podcast on this here: http://r180.com/blog/blog/2008/08/27/mobile-pod...

But, again... I haven't read the book, so my comment is not based on a study of its material... but, just thought on our relationship with the institutional church.

Re: Mobile Podcast : Ministers Should Email Often : 25% off

Lance Youngblood — Fri, 17 Oct 2008 23:10:20 -0000

An exodus from God's established authority? Not sure what that means.

Re: Mobile Podcast : Ministers Should Email Often : 25% off

r180 — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:40:16 -0000

Hi!
No, I haven't... but, I'm a bit suspicious. I'll have to get my hands on a copy. I don't believe in an exodus from God's established authority as some propose. I know this book touches on that and I'd be curious to read it.

Re: Mobile Podcast : Ministers Should Email Often : 25% off

Lance Youngblood — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 15:47:19 -0000

John, Have you read Barna's Pagan Christianity if so I'd be interested in your thougths.