John Burton Ministries - Latest Comments in No more clergy?

Re: No more clergy?

jstephan — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 15:16:30 -0000

There are definitely some weird comments popping up on your blogs lately....

Anyways, I don't think the church needs to swing to one extreme or the other regarding house churches vs. church buildings/congregations. Both play an equally important role.

It is so important to have a church government and understand lessons in authority and to be submissive to those who are in authority over you. I believe that God is raising up Apostles and Prophets to lead the church into a new expression. On the other hand house churches or meeetings help build relationship with those whom you fellowship with, but it is equally as important to meet together corporately for worship and for casting vision to the larger body of Christ.

God works in paradoxes, and I don't think I'll ever completely understand him. So in essence, both expressions are right, if they are not made to be "the model" for everyone else to follow.

Re: No more clergy?

chris — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 14:09:01 -0000

John,

I like Frank and this is a good book...but remember Frank is a House Church guy. So you've got to take with that perspective in mind. Let's be a part of God changing the expression and understanding of Christianity in one generation.

Re: No more clergy?

r180 — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 13:38:47 -0000

I'll definitely have to pick up the book. Of course, my comments have nothing to do with the content of the book since I've not read it. But, the topic of the book is intriguing.

The concern I have is this- can a church movement be both organic and strategic? It's so radically important that we understand that the church is very much an organization. It's a organized group that has it's members unified and in position ready to receive mission critical instructions from apostolic leadership.

If a church is birthed on organic relationship, it will fail. However, if it's birthed on strategic unity, it will be supernaturally charged.

To birth a church on relationship will cause it to be extremely at risk of disagreement, offense, gossip, apathy and a myriad of differing opinions.

But to birth a church on unity will result in great strength that will stand the test of many trials. Opinions, personal viewpoints, desires and other issues will be nailed to the cross for the sake of corporate agreement.

It's the 'money changers principle' that I talk about so often. An organic movement can tend to be fueled by personal desire. We are a part of an organization because of what we can get out of it. That's the same thing the money changers did. The went into the temple with the expectation of leaving with more than they entered with.

Jesus turned over the tables and declared that it is a house of prayer for all nations. We must go into the temple with the expectation of leaving with less than we entered with. We are there not to develop relationships, hear great teaching, etc. Our primary responsibility is to be unified in the place of prayer.

From that relationship will certainly be strong, teaching will be anointed and other ministries will thrive.

Re: No more clergy?

Jill — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 13:14:13 -0000

Yes, leadership is important in the Body of Christ, but I think we've borrowed too much from the business model rather than looking closely at what leadership looks like in the New Testament.

I would certainly recommend reading the book before jumping to conclusions. I believe it addresses leadership, clergy, buildings, etc. in a biblical and compelling way. The author is not out to dismantle the institution, but to call us to a higher vision-one based upon the eternal purpose of God Himself.

Here is what other people are saying about this book. A free sample chapter can also be downloaded at www.reimaginingchurch.org

“In Reimagining Church, Frank Viola is at the top of his game, showing a serene, soaring mastery of the theology of church as organism rather than organization.”
Leonard Sweet, author of Soul Tsunami, Soul Salsa, and 11
“Dissent is a gift to the Church. It is the imagination of the prophets that continually call us back to our identity as the peculiar people of God. May Viola’s words challenge us to become the change that we want to see in the Church ... and not to settle for anything less than God’s dream for Her.”
Shane Claiborne, author of The Irresistible Revolution, activist, and recovering sinner (thesimpleway.org)

“True to form, this book contains a thoroughly consistent critique of prevailing forms of church. However, in Reimagining Church, Frank Viola also presents a positive vision of what the church can become if we truly reembraced more organic, and less institutional, forms of church. This is a no holds barred prophetic vision for the church in the twenty-first Century.”
Alan Hirsch, author of The Forgotten Ways and The Shaping of Things To Come

“Frank not only pulls fresh insights out of well-known concepts, but also keeps challenging us to go back to basics and focus on Christ himself. Thank you, Frank! This practical book will identify what church can look like when it is focused on Jesus.”
Tony Dale, author and editor of House 2 House magazine, founder of The Karis Group

“Reimagining Church is a valuable addition to the resources being produced on the subject of organic churches. Written from the perspective of a long-time practitioner, Frank conveys these concepts with his usual clarity and insight and covers many of the practical aspects of starting a church. I recommend this book to anyone interested in organic church.”
Felicity Dale, author of An Army of Ordinary People and Getting Started: A Practical Guide to Starting Simple Churches

“Reimagining Church will be certain to disturb the comfortable and comfort the disturbed at the same time. Frank Viola cuts through the fog by putting his finger on the problems of man-made churchianity, while providing a solidly biblical, practical, and strategic vision for a powerful New Testament expression of the body of Christ.”
Rad Zdero, PhD, author of The Global House Church Movement and editor of Nexus: The World House Church Movement Reader

“Reimagining Church is a readable (and livable!) description of organic, New Testament-rooted church life for the twenty-first century. Avoiding the weeds of both wooden fundamentalism and unreflective over-contextualization, Frank Viola paints a winsome and attractive portrait of a gospel people, inhabited by the Holy Spirit with God in Christ as their energetic center. Frank helps us learn from the peculiar genius of Jesus and his earliest followers, planting seeds for authentic, deeply rooted life together.”
Mike Morrell, Graduate Fellow in Emergent Studies, MA in Strategic Foresight, Regent University; zoecarnate.com

“For those who are not threatened by the idea that church must change, Reimagining Church is an absolutely timely and much-needed perspective, delivering a solid biblical vision for the body of Christ. Using the entire scope of New Testament church life, Frank Viola lays out the core values and the essential principles that must form the foundation of life together as the body of Christ. The book delivers an exceptionally hopeful, visionary picture of all that church can and should be.
Grace, blogging at http://kingdomgrace.wordpress.com

“The body of Christ has been stifled by human traditions for far too long. Reimagining Church charts a fresh course for the church that recovers the simplicity of Christ and listens seriously to what the voice of the Great Shepherd is saying to His people.”
Jon Zens, editor, Searching Together and author of A Church Building Every ½ Mile: What Makes American Christianity Tick?

“If Pagan Christianity? exposes the reality that much of our current church practice has little basis in the Bible, Reimagining Church takes the next step to establish what truly biblical church life looks like. With the inner life of the Trinity as the starting point, Viola paints an amazing picture of organic church life.”
John White, community facilitator, LK10: A Community of Practice for Church Planters

Re: No more clergy?

r180 — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 13:20:45 -0000

If those are the only two sins your pastor talks about, then that would be a bit strange. However, we simply have to be together in order to get the job done. The mission demands strategic positioning and response to leadership.

We can't do it alone... we can't do much of it with small groups and no resources. We need God's leaders to advance with great strength.

Regarding the issue of buildings, it's not really a spiritual issue it's a practical issue. It's kind of a silly argument that we don't need buildings anymore. Should we send our kids to schools that have no building to meet in? Should we only eat at restaurants that have no roof? Should we only shop at open air markets? Silly.

Re: No more clergy?

david — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 13:11:57 -0000

"Oh, and regarding the idea that we don’t need buildings. I’m good with meeting in a field somewhere with a few hundred other worshipers. But, if it rains, is below 40 degrees, is above 100 degrees, snows, is very windy or if lightening is striking anywhere near, we better get indoors. So, yep, we need buildings!"

what a response, God have mercy on us all. The church leaders only teach 2 sins: 1) Forsake not the assembling of yourselves together in Heb 10 and the 2nd: Malachi's tithe message. They teach not forsaking so as to bind the money traps upon the not so discerning people. And it works as is shown throughout America.
I agree in part with Viola. The clergy and the debt ridden church buildings need to cease. They have bound the people. But we have a promise for the sheep: we know them by their fruits and these voices of the strangers the sheep will not follow.