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God learns nothing, a poet wrote, if He did, He would not be "all-knowing". Our God is discernment with a Capital "D".
This whole thing should cause a True "emergent" discerning again.
I am more discerning of C. Peter Wagner and Bill Johnson now than ever, that I have seen the video of Johnson and read the response of Wagner yesterday.
Both these men show no regard for Christ or Our Heavenly Father, cf., Eph. 1:3. Both these men put their best face on their own "lack" of discernment that was simply not of God. They should repent of it, instead what do have coming from their camps? We read a very carefully worded address of the problem that has now come out from Wagner. And we have bold face and position carefully crafted and articulated coming out of Johnson. They are self justifying their position forward thinking to minimize the effects that will certainly tarnish their ministries for ordaining Todd Bentley there at Lakeland.
I remind our Bible Students of two Scriptures found in Revelation one:
Rev 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
In this verse, the Alpha is referring to the "first" letter of the Greek alphabet and the Omega, the last.
and
Rev 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, "Fear not, I am the first and the last,
However the words here in Greek for "first" and "last" have another sense and meaning that reflects Christ's discernment.
The word in verse 17, "first" in Greek is:
πρῶτος
prōtos
pro'-tos
Contracted superlative of G4253; foremost (in time, place, order or importance): - before, beginning, best, chief (-est), first (of all), former.
"last" in Greek here is:
ἔσχατος
eschatos
es'-khat-os
A superlative probably from G2192 (in the sense of contiguity); farthest, final (of place or time): - ends of, last, latter end, lowest, uttermost.
I see neither part of the work of the Sanctification Work of the Holy Ghost at the first, that ordination service when C. Peter Wagner was commanding the "alignment" of Todd Bentley to the Apostolic speaking prophetically mind you also, or now by Wagner's letter of pure "justification of himself" trying to minimize the backlash that undoubtedly will occur because of his "lack of discernment" and Johnson's video from Bethel Church's website, which equally rises to the level of "self justification".
Where is their humility and responsibility for the lack of discernment from them? I hope someone from this group that ordained Bentley will step to the plate and be like Christ and die to self and bring True Honor and Glory to God for whom Christ died that we might have eternal life? Where is their coming under their own "error" in discernment which clearly when you put those two verses, Revelation 1:8 and Revelation 1:17 into the mix? If True Godly discernment would have prevailed the "alignment" service would have taken on an entirely different direction for Todd Bentley, as in, no, we cannot lay hands on you at this time, in fact, it would be wise for you, Todd, to seek to be well established in Truth and not be caught up with the winds swirling around Lakeland at this time.
Again, "hind sight" has a way of helping us see what we "should" have discerned about it.
Now this event does not derail Christ and the coming Kingdom of God in the lives of His Chosen in the world today.
Christ is not sitting on His Throne wringing His Hands and sweating right now wondering what His next move is going to be anywhere in the world among 6 billion living souls today.
No, my encouragement is this, you should resolve it to press on to maturity and stop being blown about by every wind of doctrine, yield to the Sanctification Work of the Holy Ghost, find that place where obedience to the Faith once delivered to the Saints establishes you in Christ and Him crucified in the midst of an out of control world following after the devil, the god of this world system.
Heed this and walk it out in Christ according to His promise of the Holy Ghost's power and not the phantom powers of one's own mind will and imagination:
Act 20:32 And now I commend you to God and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.
Come face to face with God today through the Cross of Christ, receive the Word of Grace and let these two build you up and give you the "interitance" Christ died for you to receive daily among those who are "sanctified".
And this too, daily, daily, daily:
Act 26:16 But rise and stand upon your feet, for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you as a servant and witness to the things in which you have seen me and to those in which I will appear to you,
Act 26:17 delivering you from your people and from the Gentiles--to whom I am sending you
Act 26:18 to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.'
Both these men show no regard for Christ or Our Heavenly Father...
Yikes. That's an irresponsible and unnecessary comment. Be careful.
Many are using the D word (discernment). However, I have yet to hear anybody skillfully explain what they mean by it.
Most are using insufficient means to draw their conclusions from. I've heard people mention his tattoos, his piercings, his demeanor, his mention of angels, etc. To use that data alone in our attempt to discern is strikingly insufficient.
Yes, we should discern. Yes, we can use, to a degree, our five senses and our intellect when attempting to discern. However, we can't stop there. Spiritual things are discerned spiritually.
Additionally, we as the general public, and even those who are overseers, won't have 100% of the scoop on an individual.
To simply 'sense something' and use that incomplete information to attempt to shut someone down is inappropriate. Did Todd do anything that was revealed and obvious during the Lakeland Outpouring that would have warranted his removal?
I don't think so. Of course, God did what only God can do- he did expose Todd's failure for the sake of healing, restoration and holiness.
Suspicion is not enough to shut someone down. If we are suspicious, we should simply intercede. If we have specific information, quietly share it with that person, and if he's unrepentant, take it to his leadership. Then, and only then, should any accusation be made public.
I stand by what I wrote. I spent a lot of time in prayer about this, especially after reading Wagner's repsonse and Johnson's long video posted on his website.
Both these men are backtracking and are not repentant about it. I want them to repent and to humble themselves.
A lot of folks follow these men without any doubt. You can tell me they are innocent in this can you?
Where's the beef when the error comes out?
If you cannot see the error, maybe you do not walk in Godly discernment.
Have you read Wagner's letter? Have you watched Johnson's video? Where is John Arnot in this or Che An? There were a lot of Ministries up on that public stage and it was all on video broadcast for all the world to see this alignment service.
Discernment is God's Gift, not man's ability. These men need to humbly admit they were caught up in something and it was not True Discernment under the power of the Holy Ghost.
The Apostle warns us about "denying" the Power, remember?:::>
2Ti 3:1 But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty.
2Ti 3:2 For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3 heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good,
2Ti 3:4 treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
2Ti 3:5 having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people.
There are all sorts of people out there who love to out others, to prove and display their weakness, to warn the general public and to trumpet their own special insight into a matter.
You simply have to know that an accusation (which is a demonic strategy, by the way... he's the accuser of the brethren) against two Christian men that states very coldly that they have no regard for Jesus or our Heavenly Father? It's simply reckless.
You can't know that. You might have an opinion, but you didn't state it that way. You made the final judgment on their personal relationship with Jesus. You said they have no regard for him! Very, very disturbing.
We need the fear of God on this. Rick Joyner had a prophetic warning- those who expose will be exposed. We should be broken, trembling and humbled by all of this.
ok, ok, I don't want to go to far into all this unless you do?
I will quote Scripture and leave it at that. You undoubtedly will have the last say on this one.
I make a judgment based on what I know. Neither Peter or Bill can side step the realities here. None of those folks can who were present that evening of the alignment "into" the Apostolic.
If Todd would submit to my ministry the same Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus would apply for him and me. If he saw his way to your ministry, it would be the same.
1Co 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:15 The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.
1Co 2:16 "For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.
And John, I do agree with you. You have to admit when you go back and review that alignment service and all that was done and said in the Name of the Lord, there were plenty of ministries present. All of them were there. I guess just from the face of it, they all lacked a discerning abilitiy. That does not appear to reflect the Scriptures now does it?
In the public arena, appearance is everything, right?
Here is what is appropriate and I am certain you will agree, yes?
Gal 6:1 Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.
Gal 6:2 Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
Gal 6:3 For if anyone thinks he is something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself.
Gal 6:4 But let each one test his own work, and then his reason to boast will be in himself alone and not in his neighbor.
Gal 6:5 For each will have to bear his own load.
A major point is that with the invent of the internet we can feel like we have a front row seat into someone's life, when in actuality we don't.
Those who are closest to Todd will have a much better chance of discerning than we would. And still, even they won't have 100% of the data.
To simply watch someone's platform ministry and make final judgments about it is very tough if not impossible to do.
Keep in mind that very mature Christians have discerned differently than other very mature Christians. Some have more grace and mercy than others. Some may hear one things said and discount everything else that is said. Others handle it differently.
I for instance like them, I have PRAY on the face of my right wrist and LIFE on the face of my left wrist. This is a very definate mark and causes much discussion with non-believers.
What is really interesting to me is that there is a LARGE group of folks that thinks this offensive to God. I know that everyone goes right to Lev. 19:28 and says.... Plain as day... its right there.. Well, so are alot of other laws that don't impact our lives today as Christians.
Let us be clear. Todd's Tattoo's have nothing to do with his relationship with his wife or with his relationship with God.
peace
m