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PRAY|THE|REVOLUTION
A discussion on the topics of revival, prayer, the prophetic and reformation in the church
Weâve been hearing people say that God is cleansing the church, and I absolutely agree. We have seen God act quickly in recent years and Iâm sure this will continue when men and women of God continue in their failure.…
... Continue reading »
10 months ago
"But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good" (1 Thessalonians 5:21).
"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world" (1 John 4:1).
"Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them. For such men are slaves, not of our Lord Christ but of their own appetites; and by their smooth and flattering speech they deceive the hearts of the unsuspecting" (Romans 16:17-18).
"Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints. For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ" (Jude 1:3-4).
"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ" (Colossians 2:8).
"Have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but expose them" (Ephesians 5:11).
"Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting; for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds" (2 John 1:9-10).
"Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever?" (2 Corinthians 6:14-15)
10 months ago
Other times it's not the person giving the prophecy that is at fault... it's the one receiving it.
To attempt to judge from a distance is irresponsible. You don't have all of the information necessary. You aren't a player in the person's life, so your opinion is not necessary.
It would be easy for me to read Romans 16:17-18 and point the finger at you. You are causing dissension. But, I don't know you and can't simply take one or two statements and draw a final conclusion. It would be unfair and not my place.
The same is true with Todd and Stacey. If I heard that you were weeping and interceding for them, your comments would hold more weight.
10 months ago
Also, a person claims to be a prophet of God, then foretells a prophecy. The prophecy fails, but the prophet just has a "bad day" and/or the one receiving the false prophecy is at fault?
Where is this in the Bible?
10 months ago
while I admire your earnest I have to flatly disagree with you again on this matter.
You have to step back from this for awhile and let your own spirit settle. I would appeal to your better judgment in all earnest.
I know most of these folks involved personally on some level having been in ministry over 30 years.
Let me counter your persuasion a bit with this:
Gal 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
Gal 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)
Gal 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
Gal 2:10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.
Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
"Paul publicly and boldly" confronted Peter, why? "Because he was to be blamed", and I would venture a guess if that confrontation was yesterday, guys with that kind of reputation in the Active Living Church would have had it covered by GodTV and Paul would have wanted to have it happen that way. Why? God did not cover over this error of the mighty Apostle Peter, did He? No, how do we know that? Because I just quoted it from the Bible that the Saints read daily all over the World and in every nation these days! Can I hear an amen? Can you make the connection?
Now put the gravity of those words of Paul from Galatians 2 against Peter in the balance with the gravity of Todd's errors, who has fallen into far worse and with everyone else who participated in that alignment ceremony that night and all the self justifications after all that that has occurred and quite frankly because of this very one I level some harsh criticism toward's this very behavior coming from Bill Johnson.
We cannot justify this stuff and each of these men and women are not light weights and each is quite aware of this:
Jas 3:1 Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.
Jas 3:2 For we all stumble in many ways. If anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body as well.
Everything that happened that night happened by men and women using "words", prophesies!!!!
I honestly believe you have not or you cannot observe/d that coming from Bill Johnson objectively and come away with anything other than Bill was covering for himself and making excuses and justifying his own errors here.
According to Bill and Todd, Bill is and has been actively envolved in Todd's spiritual development! Contrast this relationship with Biblical standards:
2Ti 2:1 You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 2:2 The things which you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, entrust these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.
The Biblical standard laid out here for Apostolic growth in Spiritual maturity cannot, cannot, cannot be compromised or slackened one bit, especially because of the extremely evil times we live in.
I don't want to go into this like the last time, but I will, if warranted because I sense a purity in you that I haven't found in awhile. Afterall our mandate is clear:
1Ti 1:5 But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.
Now, for the Lord's sake, don't take that last bit to far in your own spirit. Just back away from this for awhile.
The one thing I read up there from you that I embrace is this and to it I say AMEN, AMEN, AMEN!!!!!!!!:::::>
You wrote this above:
[[God has biblical government well established, and it’s doubtful that one who is not in relationship with someone like Todd would be tapped out of nowhere to participate in his correction.]]
Let the Spiritual men of the True, Active Living Church, without excuse or justification, help this family now according to the restoration mandate of God's Holy Scripture and yes, you and I have already agreed upon and no Godly man or woman would deny Todd or Shannon this:
Gal 6:1 Brethren, even if anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, so that you too will not be tempted.
Gal 6:2 Bear one another's burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ.
Gal 6:3 For if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself.
Gal 6:4 But each one must examine his own work, and then he will have reason for boasting in regard to himself alone, and not in regard to another.
Gal 6:5 For each one will bear his own load.
amen
10 months ago
Todd, Bill, Peter and the others love God very much. They love people very much. They hear God at times, and at times may miss it as we all do.
I watched people attack Jimmy Swaggart, Ted Haggard, Jim Bakker, etc. The question is, why? They were each repentant. How many times have you or I sinned in the last few days? What would it be like to have people recording and repeating everything we think or say? We have all fallen short, and we all have different perspectives on issues. Some see heresy while others see God involved. The non-essential issues of bible interpretation can cause great division,when they absolutely should not.
The key issue is that some are pointing fingers while others are folding those fingers in prayer.
10 months ago
Swaggart may have seemed repentant on video on TV, but he refused to submit to his leadership's decisions about his correction. The Assemblies of God laid out some disciplinary stipulations and a restorative process but he rebelled and refused to submit. He's not a good example to use in that scenario.
10 months ago
However, I agree that he was really in no position to debate. He should have (in my opinion) submitted to the national group.
That being said, my two points stand. Jimmy was highly anointed and effective and, twenty years later, I'm confident he's quite repentant. That part of it is not ours to judge.
It's way too subjective. That's a key problem with issues like this. People don't like the way something comes down, the way someone ministers, etc. But, they attempt to take subjective issues and cast final, authoritative judgment on them. They all fell. They may have adhered to some doctrine that others may not adhere to... but, we have to pray for them, trust that God is working on them and be willing to joyfully disagree with non-essential doctrinal issues. We agree, as brothers and sisters, to agree to disagree, to love, to run the race together, to hold each other up.
Now, if someone is clearly violating an absolute of scripture (meaning, their belief would cause them to be a non-Christian) then we must act. If they willingly continue in their sin, and God exposes that, then we must, with tears in our eyes, pray for them but pull back from their ministry into our lives. We don't have to rip them up though.
10 months ago
10 months ago
We should be vigilant regarding the absolutes of scripture. But, the non-absolutes should never cause division. We can disagree, and that's ok. We are still brothers and sisters.
Absolutes of scripture are what define us a Christians. Jesus is God. He came as a man, died on the cross, rose from the dead. We are sinners. Stuff like that. If the Bible is silent on a matter doesn't mean it's in opposition to it. So, we can't easily draw conclusions on how appropriate it is. It's not an issue that can result in division within the body.
10 months ago
10 months ago
The thing that is troubling is that people who have no relation to people like Todd or Jimmy somehow feel they need to voice an opinion.
And, it's usually an accusatory opinion of judgment. It has an unhealthy soap opera feel to it.
If someone under my care is struggling, or someone in my sphere of influence is, then, there is biblical protocol for gently, lovingly and even directly dealing with that issue. But, to rip someone as an outsider just feels like gossip.
10 months ago
Well, the one's that supposedly knew him were either taken by suprise or were winking at sin.
No, with a public figure like TB had an effect on people in churches throughout the world. I cannot speak for others, but my concern has always been for those getting sucked into deception. And that's why I spoke out. Yes, it is disgusting when a preacher has a girl friend on the side, lies about God telling him to ask for $1000 offerings, places ATMs at the tent, and gets drunk. But more disturbing was the pride and arrogance, the calling down of angels, the lies about 3rd heaven experiences and spirit travel, and the violent ministry.
I'd say those who knew him really screwed up. I've been told he swore some to secrecy. Was he really that intimidating? Do his friend's really know God? I mane what could they possible have been thinking.
I will continue to contend for the faith. Thise that wish to place millstones around their necks have my greatest sympathies, but my burden is for the tender ones they cause to stumble. People like Todd, if thay had really been to heaven, would be expected to have a little more fear of the Lord.
10 months ago
The fact that a stranger's decision making process causes you to react like this is odd. Do you love Todd Bentley? He's your brother. Not your cousin, not your uncle. Your brother. Would you lay your life down for him?
You talk about being sucked into deception. I was at the services in Lakeland, and God moved in massive power. The love my wife and I experienced was off the charts. The tenderness in Todd's eyes as he prayed for us was amazing.
Should Todd have a girlfriend on the side? No way. Do I still love Todd? Of course. Has Todd made right steps to resolve the issue? It's not my business, but I do believe that he has.
Asking for offerings is scriptural. Having an ATM on site is convienient. Drunkenness is not good, of course... but I'm praying that Todd is set free from that. Pride and arrogance? You can't presume that. It's irresponsible to do so, and really none of your business.
Calling down angels? Not unbiblical. You called Todd a liar regarding 3rd Heaven experiences? That is so inappropriate. You don't have the right or the knowledge necessary to make that call. Have you possibly sinned by slandering Todd. Just take it to the Lord.
I know two people who have had 3rd Heaven experience... and it has changed their lives. Does it grant immunity to sin? Nope.
If I heard love and compassion for Todd coming through in your post, it would make a night and day difference. It's right to stand for holiness, against heresy... but, it's done from a position of intercession and not accusation. Remember, the enemy is the accuser of the brethren. We must never embrace his strategy.
10 months ago
I'm not hurting about any leadership, but I've seen a lot of hurt in my 25 years as a c'matic/p'costal. My heart goes out for those who are terribly confused by this mess. And that's what it is.
Liar? Deciever? Just quoting C. Peter Wagner. And he knows Todd.
Hey you know waht's interesting- all these people saying how much we should interceed for Todd and I don't hear anyone saying that about his girlfriend. what's up with that?
As to angels, ATMs and $1000 offerings that the Lord didn;t really tell him to take but he said the Lord did, I'm pretty muich taking the position of Dutch Sheets and C. Peter Wagner. Is that a problem?
-Bill
10 months ago
The "cold love disguised as discernment" is the first thing I'd like to address. John, I know you know my position [I'm formerly "Lee" from Kim Olsen's site] regarding Bentley and Lakeland from well before Bentley's 'fall.' Briefly, one out of many doctrinal issues was Bentley's admittance that one of William Branham's angels provided his healing power rather than the Holy Spirit [although Bentley would also say on other occasions that it was the Holy Spirit]. Where is that in scripture?
This has nothing to do with a 'cold love' John. This has to do with a fervent love for the Word of God. And, this doesn't even require discernment but rather a cursory reading of the Word.
Secondly, I ask you, I challenge you, to find anywhere in print where any of 'Todd's opponents' have 'smirked' regarding Bentley's admitted indiscretion.
Bill Johnson's quote:
"While I will never blame Todd’s opponents for Todd’s bad choices (Todd alone is responsible for them) their opposition had a greater effect than any of his critics will likely own up to in this lifetime."
1) If 'Todd alone is responsible,' then how are Todd's 'critics' of any 'effect.' So, while Johnson says he'll 'never blame Todd's 'opponents' for Bentley's actions, Johnson in fact does. To blame someone else for one's own actions or the actions of another sounds like 'the dog ate my homework' kind of thing. Bentley needs to take personal responsibility; and, we've yet to hear a public statement/repentance. Absent this and with the news of Bentley's filing for divorce, it is apparent he does not even want to work on his marriage. This is tragic as he and Shonna have young children.
10 months ago
I've heard a lot of people trumpet the love of the Word of God, but there is clear evidence of wrong motives when the love of the Word results in finger pointing and a lack of brokenness and love for a person. It's religion. It's embracing 'facts' over Truth (Jesus).
It's so important that people clearly see our heart to love, cover, serve and pray hard for people that are struggling. We can't easily assume that people are intentionally deceptive, proud, etc. Maybe they really believe what they believe. Maybe they translate scripture differently than you. Maybe they have struggled with a sin issue their whole life. Maybe there are generational curses attached to them. There are many things to consider. It's not usually a black and white issue of someone hating God and deceiving man.
So, we act like David did toward Saul. We may want to personally separate ourselves from someone, from their direct influence in our lives, but we don't 'touch' them.
What's the purpose in that? It's not our job, unless we are someone's direct overseer, their shepherd. Even in that case, we don't discuss an issue like this with accusation and obstanance, but with tears and tenderness.
Lastly, we can't determine someone to be unbiblical simply because they mention things that aren't explicitly written about in the Bible. That has caused a lot of division and fear lately. I see it a lot on Kim's site and others like hers. If someone doesn't see someone in the Bible calling for angels to minister healing (just an example, we actually do see this in scripture), then they determine it to be a sinful practice. That's not a good litmus test. The test is to check with scripture to see if it's forbidden. The practice of witchcraft, for example, is forbidden. Gossip is forbidden (which discussions about people like Todd often violate this).
10 months ago
Lee is my middle name and I decided to start blogging with my full name. I felt it was only right that I use my full name if I was going to be writing articles. Unfortunately, I wasn’t able to input my current blogging name -- Craig Dorsheimer [formerly Lee] -- here for some reason; so, I instead used ‘CraigD.’ Perhaps I should have used an underscore instead of a space between my first and last names? [Yes, I figured out I couldn’t use brackets.]
John, with all due respect, you did not address the ‘smirk’ issue which I knew you could not defend as it has no basis in fact. At least not that I’ve seen. Those I blog with and myself certainly did not do this. Frankly, I see this as being a tad hypocritical of you as you say that others who pointed out errors in Bentley’s theology were “slow to cover, love and intercede” yet you were quick to point out our ‘errors.’
Additionally, I note that you did not address Bill Johnson’s statement regarding the ‘effect’ of Bentley’s ‘opponents’ on Bentley’s indiscretion. Once again, this is no surprise as it is contradictory to his statement that ‘Todd alone is responsible.’
>>>I've heard a lot of people trumpet the love of the Word of God, but there is clear evidence of wrong motives when the love of the Word results in finger pointing and a lack of brokenness and love for a person. It's religion. It's embracing 'facts' over Truth (Jesus).
Since Jesus is the Word made flesh, He is also Truth. The two cannot be separated. The last time I received a ticket for speeding it was because I was, in fact, speeding. The fact was: I was speeding; and, the truth was: I was speeding. I could not deny it (but, 38mph in a 30? Oh, well…). And, I had to pay the fine or take Driver’s Education (I chose the latter).
This whole notion of ‘religion’ being bad is wrong. The very definition of religion means essentially a set of beliefs. You cannot divorce the term from our faith as it provides the basis for it. ‘If you love me, obey my commands.’ [John 8:32] How can we obey Jesus’ commands if there is no set of beliefs laid out to follow?
>>>It's so important that people clearly see our heart to love, cover, serve and pray hard for people that are struggling.
Yes, the vulnerable people who were following after Bentley needed prayer (as does and did Bentley); and, I and others ‘served’ them by speaking out against his false teachings. I did not know if Bentley was ‘struggling;’ but, I did know that he was teaching some Biblical inaccuracies. I couldn’t know his heart; but, I could judge by his teachings that he was off by using the Bible as the plumb line.
>>>We can't easily assume that people are intentionally deceptive, proud, etc. Maybe they really believe what they believe. Maybe they translate scripture differently than you. Maybe they have struggled with a sin issue their whole life. Maybe there are generational curses attached to them. There are many things to consider. It's not usually a black and white issue of someone hating God and deceiving man.
If one really believes in and teaches Biblical inaccuracies then it’s incumbent upon someone to correct him/her. Since this did not happen, then warnings in blogs went out around the world. I can’t say whether Bentley hates God or not; but, I can say that he was teaching untruths whether wittingly or unwittingly.
I won’t go over the generational curses issue as ‘IWanthetruth’ has already done that. True Christians do not have these encumbrances.
>>>So, we act like David did toward Saul. We may want to personally separate ourselves from someone, from their direct influence in our lives, but we don't 'touch' them.
The point of the passage you are referring to is to not touch physically. However, regarding false teachings we are to expose them [Eph 5:11] contending for the faith [Jude 3] to snatch others from the ‘fire’ [Jude 23]. And, no one has – to my knowledge – ‘touched’ Bentley physically.
>>>What's the purpose in that? It's not our job, unless we are someone's direct overseer, their shepherd. Even in that case, we don't discuss an issue like this with accusation and obstanance, but with tears and tenderness.
No one is above reproof regardless of their ‘position’ in the Church [2 Timothy 3:16-17]. And, the supposed ‘overseers’ totally blew it in terms of fixing problems in Lakeland.
>>>Lastly, we can't determine someone to be unbiblical simply because they mention things that aren't explicitly written about in the Bible. That has caused a lot of division and fear lately. I see it a lot on Kim's site and others like hers. If someone doesn't see someone in the Bible calling for angels to minister healing (just an example, we actually do see this in scripture), then they determine it to be a sinful practice. That's not a good litmus test. The test is to check with scripture to see if it's forbidden. The practice of witchcraft, for example, is forbidden. Gossip is forbidden (which discussions about people like Todd often violate this).
In my post above, I purposely chose Bentley’s claim of an angel (especially an angel associated with the heretical William Branham) as the basis for healing as this is clearly unbiblical. The Holy Spirit gives the gifts ‘to each one just as he determines [1 Cor. 12:11]. Angels do not provide a ‘tangible healing anointing.’ Angels may minister to individuals as scripture bears out; but, it’s the Holy Spirit who provides the gift of healing to a man.
Let me ask you this, John: Sai Baba and other ‘faith’ healers who are most definitely NOT Christian, what would you identify as their healing source? When one converses with the dead (necromancy), what do you call this?
Gossip is basically ‘idle chatter.’ To expose false teaching is certainly not ‘idle chatter’ as it is of utmost importance.
10 months ago
First, the issue of fact vs. truth is so very important. They are not the same thing. The fact is that I deserve hell because of my sin. The truth is that my sin can't even be found by God.
Second, the high majority of heresy police sites would come down if we could resolve one simple issue. You mention "false teaching" as do many others. I've mentioned this before. Is it possible that other Christians have differing viewpoints on a scriptural issue?
If so (and it is so), then to call someone a false teacher, while someone else sees no scriptural violation in their teaching is quite a serious issue. I believe God is going to deal with so called "Bereans" who deem someone false when, in fact, they have been tapped by God in a very powerful way.
Here's the question. Do you agree that other studious and discerning Christians can have differing viewpoints on issues that you consider to be problamatic? If so, how do you handle someone affirming something you see as a serious issue?
For example, I believe it's critical to obey scripture and seek after the gift of prophecy. I could 'out' people who aren't obeying that scripture. Now, of course, there is much grace here... and that issue isn't one of the key absolutes of scripture. So, while I feel others are hindered in their walk by not prophesying, I don't feel that it's strong enough an issue to divide on.
10 months ago
I think perhaps you may wish to change your stance to one of 'Truth versus Grace.' A fact is still truth and/or Truth. The fact is everyone is a sinner deserving of Hell. But, the fact is Jesus died on the Cross atoning for the sins of all who accept His free gift of propitiation. So, the fact is that your sin (and mine) are not found by God if we've confessed and repented of it as long as we have accepted Jesus Christ's free gift of salvation..
Going back to my traffic ticket example: The fact is that I broke the law in going over the speed limit. The truth is that I broke the law. The Truth is that in so doing I also sinned. These T/truths are still facts. These facts are still T/truths.
However, it's by God's Grace that I'm forgiven if I confess and repent. But, that doesn't affect the consequences of my action. I still had to attend Driver's Education.
As for the rest of your response, I'll wait to address when you address my two points above.
10 months ago
Regarding #2, I have sensed that tone in quite a few folks as I've surfed around. But, the point wasn't to point my finger at them (that wouldn't be appropriate), but rather to agree with what Rick Joyner said- those who expose will be exposed. God's judgment may hit harder on those who trumpet someone's sin than the one who actually sinned.
10 months ago
Perhaps you still don't quite understand my two main points; so, I'll pose them as questions:
1) Do you have any examples of anyone who has 'smirked' or otherwise spoke gleefully over Bentley's indiscretion?
2) Regarding Johnson's blog quote which you made a point to emphasize: If 'Todd alone is responsible,' then how are Todd's 'critics' of any 'effect?'
10 months ago
2) Todd has the final decision regarding his sin. However, the extreme and terrible pressure and attack from his brothers and sisters in Christ may have made it extremely difficult to stay strong. Consider the power of peer pressure- many fail in the midst of it. If there were no peer pressure, in many cases there would be no failure. That's why we must be there for one another. We must lift each other's hands up. We play a role in each other's successes and failures whether we like it or not. An appropriate and biblical response will help a brother or sister stand strong when they might otherwise fail.
johnburton
praytherevolution.com
johnburtondesign.com
719.231.6000
10 months ago
Then regarding #1, I believe it's encumbent on you to revise your post. Otherwise, to quote your words to Bill Fawcett above:
"Remember, the enemy is the accuser of the brethren. We must never embrace his strategy."
And, on #2, you must admit that what Johnson said was not entirely correct. Todd IS responsible for his sin and NO ONE else. To say that others had an 'effect' is passing the buck. If I used that one at my place of employment I wouldn't get very far.
10 months ago
And, regarding #2, I stated my point very clearly. I firmly believe intercessors will change the world... people will be strengthened and encouraged because of their prayer. We can help a weak person (all of us are weak) through a difficult situation.
I believe Ted Haggard may have not fallen if there was a stronger prayer shield around him. If this weren't the case, it would make no sense to pray for people. Paul interceded for people all the time. I'm confident his prayer resulted in people finding themselves supernaturally infused with power they needed.
johnburton
praytherevolution.com
johnburtondesign.com
719.231.6000
10 months ago
Ted Haggard 'fell' just like Paul Cain for the same reason. I don't think I need to state it here.
10 months ago
Regarding Ted or Paul or Jimmy Swaggart, etc., could the church have strengthened them through prayer? Does prayer work?
johnburton
praytherevolution.com
johnburtondesign.com
719.231.6000
10 months ago
I am back. Just came back from a visit to Promiseland Fellowship. I and Michael and Cindy Jacobs worked in Washingtion D.C. together so I decided to hop on down and see what all the fuss was about?
But, now, I need to challenge you John.
Show me in Scripture where "taking" offerings exists?
10 months ago
10 months ago
While I understand what Bill Johnson said here, I am in total disagreement that we should not speak up when teaching is off base. What is considered non-essential? Teaching that is extra-biblical or non-biblical or short of heresy? I don't understand. Paul instructs us to judge within the church (I believe this not only means when a believer is in sin and not willing to repent but alos teaching improperly the word of God) and I also can tell you that there were and are many who prayed over this situation. This is a statement that Bill Johnson made without knowing what those in the body of Christ did.
As far as the personal stuff that Todd Is going through, I am saddened and pray for healing and reconcilliation with his wife,but even the scriptures speaks of the position of a leader being able to handle their own home, "how can he handle the affairs of the church if he can't handle the home?" The scriptures even speak that ones prayers will be hindred if the marriage is not going well.
My church a 4Square just had a meeting about the whole of Lakeland, not about Todds personal issues but about the foundation of teaching and things that happened from the platform and while this church very much believes in healing and the signs and wonders they could not support the things that were said from the platform as being scriptural. The church believed that God did indeed move in the revival upon some ( possibly because the prayer of a righteous man will be heard) and there were indeed some healings and repentence and salvation.
I think the real concern is, what was spoken of, angels, third heaven experiences, etc, when did God toss all of that out (Paul states it is unlawful to speak of the things of the third heaven and if any one focuses on angels are to be accursed) of the scriptures. When the Holy Spirit speaks not to that menas NOT TO.
Bill Johnson says there is noe "reward..." but even Paul said to turn those over to Satan to save their soul. The greatest reward in this is to save the soul of the leader and bring him back to the focus of a holy and righteous lfe repenting before God so that God can bring healing into his life and the life of others. So was it really so bad that the whole thing was "critizied" for the sake of teh gospel and the man?
Anyway, enough of the soap box.
10 months ago
10 months ago
(Paul states it is unlawful to speak of the things of the third heaven and if any one focuses on angels are to be accursed)
Here's what the Bible says about the third Heaven:
2 Corinthians 12:2-4 (NKJV)
2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago--whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows--such a one was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know such a man--whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows-- 4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Be careful not to read into this more than it says. The words he heard could not be uttered. First, this doesn't mean 'all' words. And it doesn't mean the experience couldn't be described. We certainly can describe third heaven encounters (unless God tells us personally not to) and we cannot repeat words that are personally forbidden to repeat.
Regarding angels, there's HUGE misunderstanding here. Here's the Bible:
Galatians 1:8 (NKJV)
But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
The key is the gospel, not the angel. My Bible shows a LOT of emphasis on angels. Big time! 626 times angels are mentioned.
Do we worship angels? No. Do we need understanding that they are everywhere, are a very important part of our personal and corporate missions? Yes.
10 months ago
Well, if there are then as per Exodus 20
"I, the LORD your God, [b]am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity (curses,sins) of the fathers[/b] on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,
Exd 20:6 but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and [b]keep My commandments.[/b] God is the one visiting the (generational) sin and not the enemy.
Todd has accepted Christ as personal savior, If this is the case the "whole" person" not just the spirit but "whole"person has been made new... 2Cr 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, {he is} a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. NASB 2Cr 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! NIV 2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. KJV
Notice ALL things are made new. The whole person, spirit, body and soul so if Todd has accepted Christ there is only one person responsible for their own sin.. Mat 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: KJV ; Mat 15:16 “Are you still so dull?” Jesus asked them. 17 “Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18 But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man ‘unclean.’
19 For [b]out of the heart[/b] come evil thoughts, murder, [b]adultery, sexual immorality, [/b]theft, false testimony, slander. 20 These are what make a man ‘unclean’; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him ‘unclean.’ ” NIV
Devil didn't make him (or when we sin) do anything, He made the choice and he needs to be repentent. The enemy can only lie to us and try to tempt us. When WE take hold of that temptation then WE sin. It is our responsibility. Let us [b]pray [/b] that he makes the choice of repentence and reconciliation. Let us not blame anybody else for his choices.
10 months ago
Just because someone is saved doesn't mean they are immediately set free from alcoholism (though sometimes they are), or fear or anger or whatever. Often they need to be delivered.
10 months ago
Thank you... you are right I stand corrected on the "statement of turning one over to Satan" I mis-used that scripture and apologize. Paul did do that to a couple who was totally out of bounds and did so in his apostolic position.
10 months ago
Here is the verse:
(1Co 5:5) you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.
Paul the Apostle gave "his" judgment and told the "Church" in Corinth to deliver or turn over the man to Satan for the destruction of his "flesh"/sarx that his "spirit"/pnuema would be saved in the day of the Lord.
Just thought you would want to be "re-corrected". It was the Church directed by the Apostle do apply the discipline.
10 months ago
You are exactly right, of course, and now that this is in fact scripture (as opposed to a letter to one of the early churches) this provides instruction for today's Church. And, we -- all Christians -- are part of the larger corporate Church and have the authority to use the scripture in this way. It's not just for self-proclaimed apostles who would like to have us submit to their 'leadership.'
10 months ago
I read the verse regarding the two that Paul spoke of. That was the only verse I found in my limited concordance. I need to get a better one.
Well, then, Emry... you are wrong! and I take back my corrected post and stand on what I said in the first comment that I made.
Thank you Michael and CraigD
10 months ago
12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you." [1 Cor 5:12-13 NIV]
Paul is clearly instructing the Corinthian Church to expel this man. He himself did not do it. And, why did Paul recommend this? The man was unrepentant! The goal was for the man to come to the end of himself, repent and then be welcomed back in the flock.
10 months ago
John,
Are you serious in what you are proposing by this statement? A person who does not "seek after prophecy" would be in sin? Is that what you are saying? Are you believing that Paul is stating to us to all prophecy as if it is a command to do so?
If you are you need to study 1 Corinthian 12 again.
10 months ago
1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
"As though I were present." This means that apostolic authority is necessary. It is Paul who did the judging (v.3). He emphasises "and my spirit" meaning he was behind it. He was not bodily present to execute the excommunication. You are treading on dangerous ground if you think that the power of excommunication is an individual prerogative. A corporate one, yes, but under apostolic or senior leadership authority.
Michael, you actually said yourself it was the Church "directed by the Apostle." Not Lone Ranger vigilante gunslingers or bloggers. By apostolic direction, yes. By individualistic whim, decidedly not.
10 months ago
IWanthe truth, would a person who didn't follow after love be in disobedience? Would a person who didn't desire spiritual gifts be in disobedience? What about "that ye may prophesy"? Which of these is a suggestion?
10 months ago
18I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue. [1 Corinthians 14:18-19 NIV]
The key words are 'to instruct others.' To instruct means to teach. Here's Strong's definition for 'to instruct' which is from the Greek word 'Katecheo:'
http://www.studylight.org/isb/view.cgi?number=2727
1) to sound towards, sound down upon, resound
a)to charm with resounding sound, to fascinate
2) to teach orally, to instruct
3) to inform by word of mouth
a)to be orally informed
Another example:
6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. [Acts 19:6 NIV]
In context, Paul found out these Ephesians only had John the Baptist's baptism of repentence; but, they had not heard the good news of the Gospel through Jesus Christ's atoning death. Paul explains this to this individuals in 19:4, then proceeds to baptise them and they 'prophesied.' Here's Strong's definition of this word:
http://www.studylight.org/isb/view.cgi?number=4395
to prophesy, to be a prophet, speak forth by divine inspirations, to predict
a) to prophesy
b) with the idea of foretelling future events pertaining esp. to the kingdom of God
c) to utter forth, declare, a thing which can only be known by divine revelation
d) to break forth under sudden impulse in lofty discourse or praise of the divine counsels
1)under like prompting, to teach, refute, reprove, admonish, comfort others
e) to act as a prophet, discharge the prophetic office
So, did these Ephesians give some kind of foretelling of a future event? I would say that by the context they were more likely praising God and/or quoting Scripture as in 'd' and 'c'.
10 months ago
1 Corinthians 14:1 (NKJV) Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.
The Greek word is prophēteuō. It means: to foretell events, divine, speak under inspiration, exercise the prophetic office :- prophesy.
Who wouldn't want this gift. It's value is immeasurable.
10 months ago
I've not denied it's importance; I've clarified the meaning above in my post preceding yours above using the complete definition in Strong's concordance.
10 months ago
IWanthe truth, would a person who didn't follow after love be in disobedience?
This statement would fall in the two greatest command given to us. To love the Lord your God with all your heart, strength and mind and the second to love others. Yes.
Would a person who didn't desire spiritual gifts be in disobedience? What about "that ye may prophesy"? Which of these is a suggestion?
No I don't believe its sin. What about prophecy?
10 months ago
10 months ago
I appreciate your willingmess to talk with me via blog and I take full responsibility for getting involved, but as I had shared with Craig just a short while back, I believe that I have been directed by the Holy Spirit to back off and away from blogging for awhile. I must be obedient.
Blessings
10 months ago
In fact, maybe my post worked! Do you see how inappropriate it would be to call someone false or a heretic because they don't prophesy? I do believe we are all to prophesy, and Paul did give an apostolic command for every believer to seek after that gift. But, no, we are not false or heretics if we don't prophesy.
The same is true for those who do or don't entertain angels, do or don't speak in tongues, etc. We can differ on non-absolutes of scripture. To call someone a false teacher because they have a differing viewpoint on issues like this is inappropriate.
10 months ago
10 months ago
Lets understand my perspectives so the discussion makes sense:
There is an important difference between 'forbidden' by scripture and 'unaddressed' by scripture. Living a prophetic live is critical if we are to fulfill our missions. Revival is the biblical norm. We are to walk in an invisible realm. Etc.
Off to the next ride here in Tomorrowland!
10 months ago
And, as I've pointed out above the definition of 'to prophesy' is not as narrow as you portray it to be. This isn't just my 'interpretation' as this is borne out by its very definition and the context with which it is used.
10 months ago
Let's get this straight, why did he tell the Corinthians to seek this gift? Over which other gift? And why? Why are you making it out mor ethan it is?
How would you determine if a person, or what dtermines a false teacher/prophet as you understand the scriptures?
10 months ago
Paul did indeed command that we seek to prophesy. The word "rather" in v.3 means especially and with greater emphasis i.e. prophecy is the priority gift to seek . Over, presumably, the rest of the gifts. He did, in 1 Cor. ch. 14 highlight that prophecy was more to be sought than tongues and interpretations for reasons that are in the text.
Surely it can't be made more than it is by the Apostle Paul, who finished off 1 Cor. 14 with these words:
1Co 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
1Co 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
1Co 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
1Co 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
Note that Paul is not suggesting it would be nice. John is right. We are commanded to prophesy.
10 months ago
10 months ago
we are asking you questions, lots and lots of questions and you are not answering our questions! You must be a heretic! :)
But I am forbearing as in exercising forbearance towards you so I must not be a heretic then, so hurry up and give an account for the hope that lives within you!!!!
But as to prophesy, here is what I believe. First, my warrant:
Rev 19:10 Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, "You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God." For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Here we see that Jesus was given a "Word" from Our Heavenly Father about prophesy.
I believe that crafty souls have abused this "Word" for personal glory and financial gains and for that they shall come under God's judgment and wrath if they do not repent.
Thank God that if they are children of God, they can claim Christ's suffering on the Cross for sinful mistakes and receive forgiveness for that error.
Having noted those words at Revelation 19 that "the testimony of Jesus" is the Spirit of Prophesy, I am saying that all of us, every time we boldly, gently or rudely speak on behalf of Christ, we are speaking a prophesy!
A "Thus saith the Lord" in King James English or in some gibberish is getting a bit old. We need affirmation, all of us and I believe because of this natural desire, we are more prone to wanting our ears tickled and by this desire, we open ourselves up to unfettered prophesies that bring harm and not help to our souls.
Here is how Our God sums up this whole matter which confirms why He revealed these things to Jesus to reveal these things to His Servants through John who wrote those things there at Revelation 19:::>
Heb 1:1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.
It isn't mysterious or complex, prophesy or prophesying. It is simply a matter of sharing the Truth about Christ to a listening ear. This is prophesy. We all can prophesy and most of the time we are prophesying and don't even consider that when we are sharing God's love or the Gospel with one listening to our every word.
And let's be clear about this Gospel that we share. It is said so succinctly here I will prophesy by pasting it here:::>
1Co 15:1 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand,
1Co 15:2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,
1Co 15:4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,
1Co 15:5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.
1Co 15:6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep.
1Co 15:7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles.
1Co 15:8 Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me.
Emrys, I appreciate the tone and manner of yours addressing that matter in Corinthians and I say you bring a balance to it.
You are correct that Paul the Apostle gave a "judgment". A child could have done that if they were listening to the voice of the Spirit. Because these folks, the Corinthians, were more prone to the things of the flesh by their very culture that they grew up in, I suppose that is why it wasn't being clearly heard even among the leadership there. Whatever the reason, the Apostle made a judgment and the Church actually responded in obedience to the Faith and God actually turned that one over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh as the Church so requested of God to do. As in the natural so it is in the spiritual You can consider what happened to be like what King David ordered Joab to do to Uriah and so it happened as he ordered it. God removes His protection from one such as that guy so that the enemies can devour his "flesh" so that his spirit can be saved in the Day of the Lord. Also refer to Job 18 so see a similar kind of destruction of one's flesh.
At the end of the day, I hope we have an agreement that neither Jesus, nor the Holy Ghost did anything outside the Authority given to them? Please refer to John 10 and John 16 to see both, Jesus acknowledging that He did and does, even today, do nothing without Our Heavenly Father giving Him the Authority to do so. And refer to John 16 to read how Jesus describes that the Holy Ghost only does what He too is given Authority to do. All I can say is wow!
If we could come close to following that Command structure as Jesus, the Holy Ghost, Paul and the Church at Corinth, we would see a bit more hostility expressed against us, a true hatred spurred on by our "obedience to the Faith" as Paul wrote about and the Words of the other Apostles given to us for our learning and admonition upon whom the end of the ages has come:::>
Rom 1:5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations,
and
Rom 16:25 Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages
Rom 16:26 but has now been disclosed and through the prophetic writings has been made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith--
amen?
9 months ago
I became skeptical of these visitations Todd said he had with angels. At one pont I believe he even mentioned he spoke to Apostle Paul during the summer of 2008. I made some coments to my wife about some matters that just did not hit me right about the Lakeland revival, but I did not spend any time in prayer, quality prayer, for this brother. May God forgive me. Indeed, I had discernment- but also a cold criticism about matters that did not necessarily bare witness to other things I heard and saw on tv.
May God surround this brother with love, grace, mercy and contrition as I require daily. He would be a valuable asset to lose if not restored to the body of Christ at a more appropriate time. We need forerunners. We need leaders who have the boldness to be led by the Spirit. But we also need to have a ladder of accountability for our leaders to protect them from further reproach and straying from the mark.
I pray grace for this brother, as well as Paul Cain, as well as myself. I hope my dirty laundry does not land on the front pages of the newspapers. May God surround our brothers with wise, mature and discerning elders in the Lord- and may they be teachable.
How many of us could have the light of scrutiny cast upon our lives and ministries with such intensity.
I was part of the Brownsville Revival back in 1997. And the ministry I was leading fought and endured such intense warfare words cannot fully articulate.
Let us each show love, compassion and mercy for one another. Frankly, I need it. And I am sure Todd, his family and church do as well.
May the Lord's face shine upon each of us this day, and may the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ be furthered without any further reproach.
G,D. Gresham