John Burton Ministries - Latest Comments in Todd Bentley’s Opponents : Irresponsibility : Correction

Re: Todd Bentley’s Opponents : Irresponsibility : Correction

Gary Gresham — Tue, 23 Sep 2008 10:37:20 -0000

September 2008
I became skeptical of these visitations Todd said he had with angels. At one pont I believe he even mentioned he spoke to Apostle Paul during the summer of 2008. I made some coments to my wife about some matters that just did not hit me right about the Lakeland revival, but I did not spend any time in prayer, quality prayer, for this brother. May God forgive me. Indeed, I had discernment- but also a cold criticism about matters that did not necessarily bare witness to other things I heard and saw on tv.
May God surround this brother with love, grace, mercy and contrition as I require daily. He would be a valuable asset to lose if not restored to the body of Christ at a more appropriate time. We need forerunners. We need leaders who have the boldness to be led by the Spirit. But we also need to have a ladder of accountability for our leaders to protect them from further reproach and straying from the mark.
I pray grace for this brother, as well as Paul Cain, as well as myself. I hope my dirty laundry does not land on the front pages of the newspapers. May God surround our brothers with wise, mature and discerning elders in the Lord- and may they be teachable.
How many of us could have the light of scrutiny cast upon our lives and ministries with such intensity.
I was part of the Brownsville Revival back in 1997. And the ministry I was leading fought and endured such intense warfare words cannot fully articulate.
Let us each show love, compassion and mercy for one another. Frankly, I need it. And I am sure Todd, his family and church do as well.
May the Lord's face shine upon each of us this day, and may the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ be furthered without any further reproach.

G,D. Gresham

Re: Todd Bentley’s Opponents : Irresponsibility : Correction

r180 — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 23:23:11 -0000

No, it's not hypocritical. Not at all. We need to alert people of dangerous positions... however, to name names is very difficult because we can't usually know the entirety of their position. We are at a great risk of slander. Plus, we don't know their heart, their process, etc. Also, we want to cover them as opposed to opening wounds. It's best left to people who know them well to bring correction. I really wish people would be more zealous for covering and interceding than they are for exposing. We're kidding ourselves if we think we as strangers have some special calling to force correction in other's lives. Often there is no cal for correction as the issue is simply a matter of differing opinions.

Regarding Ted or Paul or Jimmy Swaggart, etc., could the church have strengthened them through prayer? Does prayer work?

johnburton
praytherevolution.com
johnburtondesign.com
719.231.6000

Re: Todd Bentley’s Opponents : Irresponsibility : Correction

CraigD — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 23:04:12 -0000

So then you think it OK to malign a group or subgroup as long as you don't name names? Again, I find that hypocritical.

Ted Haggard 'fell' just like Paul Cain for the same reason. I don't think I need to state it here.

Re: Todd Bentley’s Opponents : Irresponsibility : Correction

r180 — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 23:00:19 -0000

Nope, not so. I stand by what I said. I stated that there was nobody specific that I could or would report on.

And, regarding #2, I stated my point very clearly. I firmly believe intercessors will change the world... people will be strengthened and encouraged because of their prayer. We can help a weak person (all of us are weak) through a difficult situation.

I believe Ted Haggard may have not fallen if there was a stronger prayer shield around him. If this weren't the case, it would make no sense to pray for people. Paul interceded for people all the time. I'm confident his prayer resulted in people finding themselves supernaturally infused with power they needed.

johnburton
praytherevolution.com
johnburtondesign.com
719.231.6000

Re: Todd Bentley’s Opponents : Irresponsibility : Correction

CraigD — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 22:48:52 -0000

John,

Then regarding #1, I believe it's encumbent on you to revise your post. Otherwise, to quote your words to Bill Fawcett above:

"Remember, the enemy is the accuser of the brethren. We must never embrace his strategy."

And, on #2, you must admit that what Johnson said was not entirely correct. Todd IS responsible for his sin and NO ONE else. To say that others had an 'effect' is passing the buck. If I used that one at my place of employment I wouldn't get very far.

Re: Todd Bentley’s Opponents : Irresponsibility : Correction

r180 — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 22:39:27 -0000

1) No. I hope there aren't any. But, an "I told you so" attitude has been quite rampant online.
2) Todd has the final decision regarding his sin. However, the extreme and terrible pressure and attack from his brothers and sisters in Christ may have made it extremely difficult to stay strong. Consider the power of peer pressure- many fail in the midst of it. If there were no peer pressure, in many cases there would be no failure. That's why we must be there for one another. We must lift each other's hands up. We play a role in each other's successes and failures whether we like it or not. An appropriate and biblical response will help a brother or sister stand strong when they might otherwise fail.

johnburton
praytherevolution.com
johnburtondesign.com
719.231.6000

Re: Todd Bentley’s Opponents : Irresponsibility : Correction

CraigD — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 22:37:52 -0000

While what you state above is not incorrect, it's not the complete definition. Speaking forth the Word of God is also to prophesy. Praising God is also prophesying.

I've not denied it's importance; I've clarified the meaning above in my post preceding yours above using the complete definition in Strong's concordance.

Re: Todd Bentley’s Opponents : Irresponsibility : Correction

CraigD — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 22:30:51 -0000

John,

Perhaps you still don't quite understand my two main points; so, I'll pose them as questions:

1) Do you have any examples of anyone who has 'smirked' or otherwise spoke gleefully over Bentley's indiscretion?

2) Regarding Johnson's blog quote which you made a point to emphasize: If 'Todd alone is responsible,' then how are Todd's 'critics' of any 'effect?'

Re: Todd Bentley’s Opponents : Irresponsibility : Correction

r180 — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 22:15:38 -0000

We are all to prophesy. This is so important. I have stories of times that I prophesied or responded to critical revelation and people got radically saved or healed. If I would not have done so, they would have not found Jesus or been healed. Prophecy is a matter of life and death.

1 Corinthians 14:1 (NKJV) Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

The Greek word is prophēteuō. It means: to foretell events, divine, speak under inspiration, exercise the prophetic office :- prophesy.

Who wouldn't want this gift. It's value is immeasurable.

Re: Todd Bentley’s Opponents : Irresponsibility : Correction

r180 — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 22:09:54 -0000

Regarding #1, we'd have to have some pretty comprehensive information regarding what Todd said and meant before we can draw any conclusions. Was he perceiving correctly? Did he communicate it well, or did he misstate some of it? What does the Bible say about it? Is the Bible silent on the matter or clearly deal with it?

Regarding #2, I have sensed that tone in quite a few folks as I've surfed around. But, the point wasn't to point my finger at them (that wouldn't be appropriate), but rather to agree with what Rick Joyner said- those who expose will be exposed. God's judgment may hit harder on those who trumpet someone's sin than the one who actually sinned.

Re: Todd Bentley’s Opponents : Irresponsibility : Correction

r180 — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 21:57:13 -0000

This is a topic that can be researched on the internet quite extensively. Lots of people lean one direction, and a lot the other. No new arguments from me.

Re: Todd Bentley’s Opponents : Irresponsibility : Correction

r180 — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 21:55:11 -0000

Real quick, the following isn't actually accurate as stated. This misunderstanding is causing many to be nervous of ministries like Todd's. Concerning this:

(Paul states it is unlawful to speak of the things of the third heaven and if any one focuses on angels are to be accursed)

Here's what the Bible says about the third Heaven:
2 Corinthians 12:2-4 (NKJV)
2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago--whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows--such a one was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know such a man--whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows-- 4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Be careful not to read into this more than it says. The words he heard could not be uttered. First, this doesn't mean 'all' words. And it doesn't mean the experience couldn't be described. We certainly can describe third heaven encounters (unless God tells us personally not to) and we cannot repeat words that are personally forbidden to repeat.

Regarding angels, there's HUGE misunderstanding here. Here's the Bible:

Galatians 1:8 (NKJV)
But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.

The key is the gospel, not the angel. My Bible shows a LOT of emphasis on angels. Big time! 626 times angels are mentioned.

Do we worship angels? No. Do we need understanding that they are everywhere, are a very important part of our personal and corporate missions? Yes.

Re: Todd Bentley’s Opponents : Irresponsibility : Correction

r180 — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 21:32:55 -0000

Absolutely it's our responsibility to life rightly. If we sin, we sin. We can't blame the devil. However, any person who has done any amount of deliverance ministry (you realize that deliverance ministry is a ministry to Christians?), you see that many people are radically influenced by the enemy. Some can't seem to break off depression or lust or fear... until they go through deliverance. It's the truth of Jesus and the power of the Holy Spirit that sets them free.

Just because someone is saved doesn't mean they are immediately set free from alcoholism (though sometimes they are), or fear or anger or whatever. Often they need to be delivered.

Re: Todd Bentley’s Opponents : Irresponsibility : Correction

r180 — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 18:56:22 -0000

I'm replying from my phone at Disney World... I'll look at your post again. My hope for this site is to stimulate passion and intercession for revival, the fire of God's manifest presence, the prophetic and city transformation. We'll have to be careful not to become just another debate site.

Lets understand my perspectives so the discussion makes sense:

There is an important difference between 'forbidden' by scripture and 'unaddressed' by scripture. Living a prophetic live is critical if we are to fulfill our missions. Revival is the biblical norm. We are to walk in an invisible realm. Etc.

Off to the next ride here in Tomorrowland!

Re: Todd Bentley’s Opponents : Irresponsibility : Correction

michael — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 17:35:27 -0000

Yeah John,

we are asking you questions, lots and lots of questions and you are not answering our questions! You must be a heretic! :)

But I am forbearing as in exercising forbearance towards you so I must not be a heretic then, so hurry up and give an account for the hope that lives within you!!!!

But as to prophesy, here is what I believe. First, my warrant:

Rev 19:10 Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, "You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God." For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Here we see that Jesus was given a "Word" from Our Heavenly Father about prophesy.

I believe that crafty souls have abused this "Word" for personal glory and financial gains and for that they shall come under God's judgment and wrath if they do not repent.

Thank God that if they are children of God, they can claim Christ's suffering on the Cross for sinful mistakes and receive forgiveness for that error.

Having noted those words at Revelation 19 that "the testimony of Jesus" is the Spirit of Prophesy, I am saying that all of us, every time we boldly, gently or rudely speak on behalf of Christ, we are speaking a prophesy!

A "Thus saith the Lord" in King James English or in some gibberish is getting a bit old. We need affirmation, all of us and I believe because of this natural desire, we are more prone to wanting our ears tickled and by this desire, we open ourselves up to unfettered prophesies that bring harm and not help to our souls.

Here is how Our God sums up this whole matter which confirms why He revealed these things to Jesus to reveal these things to His Servants through John who wrote those things there at Revelation 19:::>

Heb 1:1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

It isn't mysterious or complex, prophesy or prophesying. It is simply a matter of sharing the Truth about Christ to a listening ear. This is prophesy. We all can prophesy and most of the time we are prophesying and don't even consider that when we are sharing God's love or the Gospel with one listening to our every word.

And let's be clear about this Gospel that we share. It is said so succinctly here I will prophesy by pasting it here:::>

1Co 15:1 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand,
1Co 15:2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,
1Co 15:4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,
1Co 15:5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.
1Co 15:6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep.
1Co 15:7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles.
1Co 15:8 Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me.

Emrys, I appreciate the tone and manner of yours addressing that matter in Corinthians and I say you bring a balance to it.

You are correct that Paul the Apostle gave a "judgment". A child could have done that if they were listening to the voice of the Spirit. Because these folks, the Corinthians, were more prone to the things of the flesh by their very culture that they grew up in, I suppose that is why it wasn't being clearly heard even among the leadership there. Whatever the reason, the Apostle made a judgment and the Church actually responded in obedience to the Faith and God actually turned that one over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh as the Church so requested of God to do. As in the natural so it is in the spiritual You can consider what happened to be like what King David ordered Joab to do to Uriah and so it happened as he ordered it. God removes His protection from one such as that guy so that the enemies can devour his "flesh" so that his spirit can be saved in the Day of the Lord. Also refer to Job 18 so see a similar kind of destruction of one's flesh.

At the end of the day, I hope we have an agreement that neither Jesus, nor the Holy Ghost did anything outside the Authority given to them? Please refer to John 10 and John 16 to see both, Jesus acknowledging that He did and does, even today, do nothing without Our Heavenly Father giving Him the Authority to do so. And refer to John 16 to read how Jesus describes that the Holy Ghost only does what He too is given Authority to do. All I can say is wow!

If we could come close to following that Command structure as Jesus, the Holy Ghost, Paul and the Church at Corinth, we would see a bit more hostility expressed against us, a true hatred spurred on by our "obedience to the Faith" as Paul wrote about and the Words of the other Apostles given to us for our learning and admonition upon whom the end of the ages has come:::>

Rom 1:5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations,

and

Rom 16:25 Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages
Rom 16:26 but has now been disclosed and through the prophetic writings has been made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith--

amen?

Re: Todd Bentley’s Opponents : Irresponsibility : Correction

The Emrys — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 17:13:14 -0000

Tim, the definition of false prophet John has covered. Read the posts. How much plainer do you need it?

Paul did indeed command that we seek to prophesy. The word "rather" in v.3 means especially and with greater emphasis i.e. prophecy is the priority gift to seek . Over, presumably, the rest of the gifts. He did, in 1 Cor. ch. 14 highlight that prophecy was more to be sought than tongues and interpretations for reasons that are in the text.

Surely it can't be made more than it is by the Apostle Paul, who finished off 1 Cor. 14 with these words:

1Co 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
1Co 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
1Co 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
1Co 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

Note that Paul is not suggesting it would be nice. John is right. We are commanded to prophesy.

Re: Todd Bentley’s Opponents : Irresponsibility : Correction

Tim H — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 14:52:36 -0000

Also I would like your scriptural references that pertain to what the qualifications for an (A)postle are? How is one called to (A)postleship today?

Re: Todd Bentley’s Opponents : Irresponsibility : Correction

Tim H — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 14:50:23 -0000

I do believe we are all to prophesy, and Paul did give an apostolic command for every believer to seek after that gift.

Let's get this straight, why did he tell the Corinthians to seek this gift? Over which other gift? And why? Why are you making it out mor ethan it is?

How would you determine if a person, or what dtermines a false teacher/prophet as you understand the scriptures?

Re: Todd Bentley’s Opponents : Irresponsibility : Correction

IWanthetruth — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 12:10:57 -0000

Emry and John

I appreciate your willingmess to talk with me via blog and I take full responsibility for getting involved, but as I had shared with Craig just a short while back, I believe that I have been directed by the Holy Spirit to back off and away from blogging for awhile. I must be obedient.

Blessings

Re: Todd Bentley’s Opponents : Irresponsibility : Correction

The Emrys — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 10:58:21 -0000

So the first part of this verse is a commandment and the other two instructions are...? Suggestions? Options?

Re: Todd Bentley’s Opponents : Irresponsibility : Correction

IWanthetruth — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 10:31:25 -0000

1Co 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

IWanthe truth, would a person who didn't follow after love be in disobedience?

This statement would fall in the two greatest command given to us. To love the Lord your God with all your heart, strength and mind and the second to love others. Yes.

Would a person who didn't desire spiritual gifts be in disobedience? What about "that ye may prophesy"? Which of these is a suggestion?

No I don't believe its sin. What about prophecy?

Re: Todd Bentley’s Opponents : Irresponsibility : Correction

CraigD — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 09:44:24 -0000

I do believe we are all to prophesy, and Paul did give an apostolic command for every believer to seek after that gift.

And, as I've pointed out above the definition of 'to prophesy' is not as narrow as you portray it to be. This isn't just my 'interpretation' as this is borne out by its very definition and the context with which it is used.

Re: Todd Bentley’s Opponents : Irresponsibility : Correction

CraigD — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 09:24:06 -0000

John, in all fairness I've attempted to answer your responses yet you still did not address two of mine which directly pertain to your post. Do you intend on answering them?

Re: Todd Bentley’s Opponents : Irresponsibility : Correction

r180 — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 09:05:40 -0000

You missed the point entirely. The point was not about prophecy. It was about calling people heretics or false teachers due to their differing perspectives on the non-absolutes of scripture.

In fact, maybe my post worked! Do you see how inappropriate it would be to call someone false or a heretic because they don't prophesy? I do believe we are all to prophesy, and Paul did give an apostolic command for every believer to seek after that gift. But, no, we are not false or heretics if we don't prophesy.

The same is true for those who do or don't entertain angels, do or don't speak in tongues, etc. We can differ on non-absolutes of scripture. To call someone a false teacher because they have a differing viewpoint on issues like this is inappropriate.

Re: Todd Bentley’s Opponents : Irresponsibility : Correction

CraigD — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 08:51:48 -0000

What is the definition of 'to prophesy?' In its general term it is simply speaking the Word of God. This is either as forthtelling, foretelling or even praising God (see below). Given that Paul has separate terms for 'message of wisdom' and 'message of knowledge' and taking into account the general contexts of 1 Corinthians 12-14 wouldn't speaking forth the word of God be more in line with his meaning? I understand this does not specifically exclude foretelling; but, it sure seems more plausible that Paul is speaking of teaching:

18I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue. [1 Corinthians 14:18-19 NIV]

The key words are 'to instruct others.' To instruct means to teach. Here's Strong's definition for 'to instruct' which is from the Greek word 'Katecheo:'

http://www.studylight.org/isb/view.cgi?number=2727

1) to sound towards, sound down upon, resound
a)to charm with resounding sound, to fascinate
2) to teach orally, to instruct
3) to inform by word of mouth
a)to be orally informed

Another example:

6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. [Acts 19:6 NIV]

In context, Paul found out these Ephesians only had John the Baptist's baptism of repentence; but, they had not heard the good news of the Gospel through Jesus Christ's atoning death. Paul explains this to this individuals in 19:4, then proceeds to baptise them and they 'prophesied.' Here's Strong's definition of this word:

http://www.studylight.org/isb/view.cgi?number=4395

to prophesy, to be a prophet, speak forth by divine inspirations, to predict
a) to prophesy
b) with the idea of foretelling future events pertaining esp. to the kingdom of God
c) to utter forth, declare, a thing which can only be known by divine revelation
d) to break forth under sudden impulse in lofty discourse or praise of the divine counsels
1)under like prompting, to teach, refute, reprove, admonish, comfort others
e) to act as a prophet, discharge the prophetic office

So, did these Ephesians give some kind of foretelling of a future event? I would say that by the context they were more likely praising God and/or quoting Scripture as in 'd' and 'c'.